Evidence of meeting #12 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charity.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Gina Wilson  Deputy Minister, Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, Department of Canadian Heritage
Benoît Robidoux  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development
Mary Dawson  As an Individual

2 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

No, it's never that.

2 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Well, I am sure that there are occasions of that nature.

2 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

There are often places where you would rather not be if you had the complete choice, but—

2 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I can't imagine what you're referring to.

At the same time, we have this story that the Prime Minister pushed back. You didn't mention that in your original testimony. Minister Chagger didn't mention it. No one else who was there mentioned it. I would think, if a Prime Minister, particularly someone who likes to box, were to put up his dukes and push back, you'd remember it. You probably would have gone home at the end of that day feeling like you had a rotten day, that the boss pushed back against you, but you don't remember having been at that meeting.

2 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I did say to the finance committee that Ms. Telford raised those questions, so it's well established that the Prime Minister and his chief of staff raised the issue of due diligence. That's been very clear and consistent.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Right, we just can't get any sense of what due diligence they wanted or received. They knew nothing about the finances, about the board resignations, about the problems that WE.... They couldn't list the other organizations that were consulted, so it doesn't sound like they had any real—

2:05 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

We've provided the information on the other organizations, and I've been clear that the due diligence did not extend to the financial matters of the foundation.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Right, which would have been necessary to know if they could deliver it—

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

That's time.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I would conclude, Madam Chair, if I may, by agreeing with Mr. Gerretsen.

Mr. Shugart, you are an exceptional public servant. I think it is terrible the way the Prime Minister has thrown you and the public service under the bus, the way that he has implied that you and your organization are to blame. I want you to know—

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

Mr. Poilievre, that's time.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

—that Her Majesty’s official opposition does not believe it for a second.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

Thank you.

Mr. Shugart, if I may, the original agreement was that you would be here until 2:00; however, due to technical difficulties at the beginning of this meeting, we got started quite late. Would you agree to be here until 2:30 today?

2:05 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I'm at the committee's disposal. I'm delighted to be here.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

Mr. Shugart, that's an excellent answer. Thank you so much for accommodating us.

2:05 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I think we did begin a little before the time. I do have other appointments, but I'll be happy to stay.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

I will get you out of here no later than 2:30.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I have a point of order.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

Yes, Mr. Gerretsen.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Poilievre made a comment towards the end there, and you—

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

This doesn't sound like a point of order.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

It actually is, because it has to do with the procedural order of the meeting. It's a point of order. He made a comment. In past comments that have been made at the end—this is not debate; it is to the procedure—you have allowed, as chair, the witness to respond, in this case Mr. Shugart. I'm wondering if, procedurally, you will allow Mr. Shugart to respond to Mr. Poilievre's comment.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Sorry, I have a point of order.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Harder

Mr. Angus.