Evidence of meeting #12 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charity.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Gina Wilson  Deputy Minister, Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, Department of Canadian Heritage
Benoît Robidoux  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development
Mary Dawson  As an Individual

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Dawson, I'm a new member so it's a pleasure and a learning experience for me to have this opportunity to ask a few questions.

I've been listening quite carefully to what my opposition colleagues have asked and to your answers. It seems to me that they are more frustrated with the fact that your investigations of this incident did not deliver them a winning campaign or winning election results in that last election.

I think members of the public should be concerned and curious to know your view on our overall ethics regime. On the whole, to your mind, is it fairly effective still?

5:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

I think it's a good regime. I mentioned in my opening remarks I was astounded while I was in that office at the number of different countries—China, Russia, Ukraine, some African countries, England, Australia, New Zealand—that made appointments to send delegations to study our regime. I think regimes can always be improved. This is what we call the Canadian model. All the provinces have similar regimes with some slight differences. Canadians should take pride in the regimes we've got. I think they're a model for the world, and they can always be improved.

For example, I had occasion to be on a panel with the former ethics commissioner of the United States. In the United States they don't have the power to investigate. All they have the power to do is advise. The regimes are what they are and they're as good as they can be, but at some point these regimes can't go beyond and into the criminal realm. That's a different field. That's a bunch of random thoughts.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

That's very helpful. Do you think there's an ethics problem within Parliament, or perhaps our government? Not our current Liberal government, but the system.

5:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

Ethics issues are always going to come up. This is a vehicle to deal with them and to try to make things better.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Do you think ethics commissioners should be proactively working with decision-makers in government, or should they just read, interpret and apply the code? Where do you fall on the spectrum?

5:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but certainly when I was commissioner, and probably still, we frequently made ourselves available to meet with, for example, ministers' offices or different commissions to discuss the ethics roles. That was a very good exercise because we could discuss where some of the issues were. I won't name any specific ones, but again that is a very important role of the office, as I said in my introductory remarks.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Thank you.

I will pass to Mrs. Zahid.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Dawson, for appearing before the committee and for agreeing to appear today, as the system was not working yesterday. Do you stand by your statement, which you made in 2018 in an interview with The Globe and Mail, that there's not an awful lot of bad stuff going on?

5:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

Yes, I think so. I don't know. What do I know? I know what I see in the media or whatever. To me we're a pretty good society. I'm proud of being a Canadian.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Do you have any suggestions where we should be drawing a line in determining who the family member is in regards to the involvement of family members in charitable or professional work that could overlap with the decisions MPs and the cabinet make?

5:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

I'm not sure what you're getting at. That's what we have the conflict of interest screens for, if there's any concern. It's a question of whether the charity is looking for money from the government, or looking for some kind of support. In that situation, if one has a position that makes the decisions on that, there have to be some conflict rules. It would involve your own or your families' or your relatives' situations as well in certain cases.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Thomas

Thank you so much, Ms. Dawson.

I'm handing the floor to Mr. Kurek for five minutes.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Dawson, for appearing before this committee.

I want to follow up on a question Mr. Dong asked. Does this current government have an ethics problem? I know the Prime Minister is now under his third investigation. I'd be very curious to hear your comments on the current ethical practices of the current government.

5:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

The Prime Minister is one member of the government. The Prime Minister, I believe, has his heart in the right place, basically. Maybe he's not as careful as he should be, I don't know, but when you look at how the various things have been handled through this pandemic, I thought he did a good job on that and we're in a strange situation right now.

I just think that all of the people who are in government need to be brought up short when they do something that contravenes the ethics rules. But I'm not going to.... It moves on and these things pop up from time to time.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I appreciate that.

I understand after the Trudeau Report, you had the opportunity to testify before the ethics committee and be asked questions regarding that report. I was quite astounded, as a new member of Parliament this past February, when members of the government voted against the current commissioner having the opportunity to come to share his findings on the Trudeau II Report before this committee.

I'm wondering what your thoughts on that are and if you believe that the Ethics Commissioner should be able to report his findings before this committee?

5:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

I don't know quite what I said at that other committee, but the thing is that there is a rule in the Conflict of Interest Act that your report speaks for itself and you're not supposed to divulge, as an Ethics Commissioner, any information you got in the course of your investigation, or anything outside of what you have put in your report.

One has to be careful, as an Ethics Commissioner, not to go beyond that, so I'm not sure how useful it would be for a commissioner to come and testify, except generally about the way the act works or something. That's why I've kept myself general. I'm no longer the commissioner, but the current commissioner is under a legal obligation not to go chit-chatting about the report he is writing, and after it's issued it stands for itself.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I have a few questions about your interpretation of the act. You made a statement to the media that reads, “One doesn't continue to do the same thing twice.” You then go on to say, “There seems to be a little bit of a blind spot or something there.” That was in reference to the Prime Minister's ethical behaviour. I wanted to read that into the record. Do you have any further comments on what you meant by that, in relationship to the current status of the WE Charity investigation and the various facets of that regarding both the Prime Minister and the finance minister? It seems like each and every day its scope is expanding.

5:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

That comment was made in response to a question about the fact that there were three reports that came out, all of which had some sort of connection to the Conflict of Interest Act. Maybe it was a little bit of a flippant remark, but the point I was making is that I feel that the Prime Minister's heart is in the right place, as I said. I feel that he tries to do the right thing, he tries to do good, and I just think these things have been oversights, basically.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

How much time do I have left?

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Thomas

You have 30 seconds.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I have a really quick question, then.

Did you ever have cause to pick up the phone and refer a case, over your last number of years as Ethics Commissioner, to appropriate law enforcement officers such as the RCMP?

5:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Mary Dawson

Yes, I did on several occasions, and there were several occasions when they would have started something and they'd let me know that as well, and then I'd have to discontinue.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rachael Thomas

Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you very much, Ms. Dawson.

I, like others, very much appreciate your being here. I've learned a lot from hearing what you've had to say.

You said something very interesting in response to a question earlier. Not that long ago you said that there will always be ethics issues that come up.

I don't know how the public would respond to that. Isn't the point of a Conflict of Interest Act to prevent issues from coming up? What do you mean by that?