Evidence of meeting #12 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charity.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Gina Wilson  Deputy Minister, Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, Department of Canadian Heritage
Benoît Robidoux  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development
Mary Dawson  As an Individual

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

You do not believe so.

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

To the best of my knowledge, the answer is no.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

You were there.

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Either I was there or my colleague Phil Jennings, who's deputy secretary at PCO was. I would refer—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Did the Prime Minister ask, at that meeting, for evidence that the public service could not deliver the program?

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Well, as I said to the earlier question, this was oral, but yes, he asked for an understanding of the capacity of the public service, which was provided.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Did he ask for any information about the financial state of the WE organization?

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Did he ask for any evidence that the organization had a governance structure?

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Do you mean difficulties with that? No.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

He effectively said that your public service did not cross t's or dot i's, and that you did not provide him with enough scrutiny at that meeting. What did you lack? What did the public service fail to tell him that made him “push back”, in his words?

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

My understanding of what the Prime Minister has said is that he wanted assurance that the i's were dotted and the t's crossed.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

But they weren't—

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I am not aware that he found any particular gaps in the information.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Well, he must have, because he claims—claims—that he pulled the document from the cabinet meeting.

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

So he must have found a gap.

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Well, he was not satisfied—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Why not?

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

—but he wanted greater assurance. I would not say he pointed to any specific gaps in the information.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Did he give you a list of due diligence that he wanted?

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Yes. We've referred to that as issues related to—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

There's a list?

1:20 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

We discussed this in the meeting. I've referred to what those topics were: the ability of the organization to reach harder-to-access Canadians, bilingualism, regional reach and that kind of thing.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

But he didn't ask about finances or governance, obviously, which would be necessary for an organization to deliver a program, and yet somehow he claims that he was seeking due diligence.

Has the WE organization repaid the money it received from the government yet?