Information & Ethics Committee on April 12th, 2021

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

If you will allow me to answer your question, Mr. Angus—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was beginning my question.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I wanted to answer that and respond to that statement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Order, members.

Mr. Angus, would you finish your question so that the minister has an opportunity to answer?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was just beginning my question, Mr. Lametti. I'm sorry to interrupt. I don't want to be rude.

Rose Kalemba gave us horrific testimony in writing. She was 14 when she was kidnapped, tortured and raped, and multiple videos of her torture were posted on Pornhub. She begged them to take it down. They wouldn't take it down until over two million people had witnessed it.

She is a Canadian citizen. These tags were posted by a company that is centred in Montreal. Given your reading of the mandatory reporting act, would it have saved Rose Kalemba and the other victims that we talked to if there had been a single instance where Pornhub or MindGeek had actually reported, as per the mandatory reporting act, as we have in Canadian law, to Canadian authorities?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Mr. Angus, I will say, as I have said, that both the Criminal Code and the mandatory reporting act cover Canadian domestic situations. Other international agreements help with respect to the gathering of that evidence.

I won't comment on any past, ongoing or future cases of investigation. That is not in my.... I'm not able to do that without jeopardizing potential investigations.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I totally understand. It was just that Ms. Kalemba was Canadian, so I thought you might be able to help us.

I'm interested, though, because we talked about the mandatory reporting act and you're telling us we're going to get this new regulator that's going to come, and it's going to be mandatory as well. However, this RCMP briefing note says that the RCMP strives to maintain partnerships with private companies—Pornhub/MindGeek—as these are effective and support the companies' voluntary compliance and adherence to its own terms of use.

I have read the laws on child pornography and the mandatory reporting act. I'm just really surprised that the RCMP and you seem to have this position that you would prefer voluntary compliance with the law, when we haven't had a single case of their actually reporting anything. How does this voluntary compliance work with our partners at MindGeek if they never report anything?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Angus, your time is up, but we will turn to the minister for a response.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I think you should address that question perhaps to the RCMP. I have expressed no position, Mr. Angus, for the record, although you seem to have attributed one.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You don't have a position whether they should report or not. As the Attorney General, you don't have a position. Okay. Thank you.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

That is not what I said, Mr. Angus.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, gentlemen.

We will turn to Mr. Viersen for five minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Lametti, back in November, I and a number of parliamentarians wrote you regarding documented cases of child exploitation, sex trafficking and rape published on MindGeek sites. This was monetized and viewed by millions. We asked you if the current laws were adequate and what was preventing the lack of enforcement.

You wrote back, “I...assure you that the Criminal Code contains a robust framework that prohibits a broad range of the conduct you reference”.

Here we are six months later. Multiple victims have come forward, hundreds if not thousands of examples, and still no charges have been laid. Are you still confident in our robust framework?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Viersen.

I'm very confident in that robust framework. We have domestic coverage, which is more exhaustive I think than any other country in the world. This is a complex international situation, and questions about the application of the law should be addressed to the RCMP, for example, as an investigating body.

Perhaps Minister Blair would have something to add, but certainly, the normative coverage of our laws in Canada are second to none in the world.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

If I might—

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Minister Lametti, under the Director of Public Prosecutions Act, the public prosecutions act allows the Attorney General to issue prosecutorial directives. Have you issued any prosecutorial directives in this regard?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Our prosecution service, Mr. Viersen, as you know, is done at arm's length. The times at which I can intervene are structured under the act and very rare.

I am working, obviously, with my counterparts, but I can assure you that law enforcement is, first of all, working on investigations in an independent manner. Then, to the extent that there is enough evidence gathered to proceed with prosecutions, that will be part of an independent prosecutorial decision, and I am confident that those agencies are all doing their work as they are supposed to be.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Mr. Lametti, this has been going on for years. We're discussing egregious offences towards women and children—sex trafficking, child abuse, rape—all published online for years and years, yet we see no charges, no investigations. Don't you think that maybe now is the time for a prosecutorial directive?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Again, my role in this, Mr. Viersen, as you know, is to ensure that the Criminal Code, the mandatory reporting act and other statutes provide adequate coverage—

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

You have no responsibility in this at all...?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] all. I am confident that all aspects of Canadian law enforcement and prosecution, as well as the justice department and the public safety department, are working hand in hand in order to make sure this goes well. What I can't do, as an elected official, is comment on an investigation, and what I can't do as the Minister of Justice or Attorney General is—

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

We're not talking about a particular investigation. We're just saying, do you have a prosecutorial directive?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

—harm the independence of the prosecutorial [Technical difficulty—Editor] important. It was established under the previous Conservative government, and I firmly believe that was a very good move by Conservative justice ministers at the time.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Interestingly, MindGeek or Pornhub has over 1,000 employees in this country. They operate in this country, regardless of where they are. Do you believe that regardless of where a company is headquartered they ought to obey Canadian law?