Information & Ethics Committee on April 12th, 2021

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We'll turn to Mr. Fergus for the last questions of the second round.

Mr. Fergus, you have five minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us.

As I'm sure you've noticed, this is a very thorny issue that deeply affects all members of Parliament who have participated in these meetings. Before I put my question to the two ministers, I'd like to raise a few points.

Mr. Lametti, you said that we have a very powerful law, but that a few things need to be strengthened to better reflect the international nature of cybercrime, if I can use that term, because the actions of MindGeek and Pornhub are indeed criminal. The problem is the location of their computer servers.

I can also note that despite the fact that a willingness to act seems to transcend partisanship, the official opposition voted against increased funding for the RCMP to combat the scourge of online child pornography. That said, I know that the members here are acting in good faith and that they want to do the right thing now.

Mr. Lametti and Mr. Blair, what do you need, both in terms of resources and improvements to the legislative framework, to address these crimes in a way that takes into account their international nature due to the nature of the Internet?

What other tools and funding are needed to properly prosecute these people and bring justice to the victims of these crimes?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fergus, for what is a very important question.

As you've already indicated, we do supply funding to the RCMP to run the National Child Exploitation Crime Centre, which has a number of significant responsibilities, including the investigation of these predators to gather the evidence to bring them to court and to prosecute them. It also has the purpose of identifying and rescuing victims on the international front.

Because of the nature of online harms generally, and certainly of this most terrible crime, there is a very significant international component. That's why, in the five-country ministerial meetings that I have attended for each the last three years, the focus in each of those meetings has been on online child sexual [Technical difficulty—Editor] and implementation of principles to guide industry efforts to combat online crimes and child sexual exploitation.

In addition, we are part of an initiative called the WePROTECT Global Alliance, which is a movement dedicated to national and global action to end sexual exploitation of children online. It includes like-minded states, NGOs and civil society organizations.

Finally, Mr. Fergus, I would point out that the RCMP actually chairs a group called the Virtual Global Taskforce on child exploitation. This is an international law enforcement alliance that is engaged in intelligence sharing, data sharing and dealing with this issue globally. I think it is a demonstration of both Canada's commitment and the RCMP's global leadership on this critically important issue.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Mr. Fergus, I would just add that we're working with other countries on mutual legal assistance treaties to facilitate the exchange of information between our police forces, multilateral conventions on cybercrime, as well as bilateral agreements with countries such as the United States, for example, to facilitate the exchange of information in a context where it needs to be done quickly.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Lametti, Mr. Blair, the committee really wants to deal with this issue. We would like to propose amendments that could make your job easier and help you to prosecute these criminals.

What do you expect from the committee? What kind of recommendations could strengthen your capacity so that you have the legal framework necessary?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus. Your time is up, but we will allow the ministers to respond to the question.

Ministers.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

As I just explained, national laws are very strong. What we would like to see is better co-operation at the international level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Minister Blair, did you have a response to that as well?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Let me acknowledge the important work of this committee. We look forward to its findings and recommendations. I think we all share a common commitment to eliminate the sexual exploitation of children online. We look forward to the recommendations of this committee to help inform and support that work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

We are now finished with the second round of questions.

Ministers, you indicated that you were available for only the first hour. We'd love to have you stay, if you could extend it, but we respect that you are busy people as well. If you're not able to stay, we want to thank you for being here this morning. We appreciate your willingness to be here.

Colleagues, we'll continue. Mrs. Stubbs will begin the third round of questions.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

I have some questions for you, Commissioner Lucki. I have been looking at the website for the various child sexual exploitation units in the RCMP. I would also just note the recent reporting by the director of Cybertip, who says that in 2020 his [Technical difficulty—Editor] spike over April, May and June [Technical difficulty—Editor] youth who had been sexually exploited and reports of people trying to sexually abuse children.

I wonder if you could confirm that cases of child sexual exploitation online have increased during the past year. In that context, could you also shed some light on exactly what the support and resources were that the public safety minister says he offered when he reached out to the RCMP after members of Parliament and victims spoke out on this travesty last year?

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you so much for that question.

COVID-19 especially has had a heightened risk to children, as offenders have taken advantage of the fact that children are spending more time online and are often unsupervised. Since the onset of the pandemic, the centre has seen increased online activity related to online child sexual exploitation. From March to May 2020, the centre has recorded an approximately 36% increase in reports of suspected online child exploitation, attributed in part to the increase in viral media and a tangible increase in self-exploitation cases.

We also anticipate more reporting of child exploitation offences, both online and off-line, when the pandemic-related restrictions are slowly lifted and the children have access to trusted adults once again—their teachers, caregivers and community support services. It was largely limited at the onset of the pandemic, likely preventing children from reporting abuse to trusted adults outside of their homes, which is such a crucial part.

In terms of your question with regard to Minister Blair reaching out to the RCMP, whenever a huge...for example, when this arose about the increase in child exploitation, we're always having a conversation about the things we can do to prevent them. Obviously, we're looking at legislation and we're looking at the mandatory reporting act. We spoke about resources. We spoke about technology. We've talked about things within the acts and how that could improve law enforcement and how we could better reach out to law enforcement.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I'm assuming that you have followed this committee and are well aware of the clear instances of hundreds of victims—if not thousands—of child sexual assault material, rape, human trafficking and non-consensual images. I'm confident that you're as disturbed by the victims' testimony as each and every one of us is.

Without any specifics whatsoever, can you confirm whether or not there is an investigation into MindGeek and whether or not any charges have been laid?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Thank you for [Technical difficulty—Editor] the committee is looking for clarity on the investigational status, and generally, unfortunately, we don't comment on whether or not an incident is under investigation. Obviously the main reason is that we don't want to compromise investigational steps or crucial evidence, and data is just so.... It comes and goes so quickly, and we really do try not to compromise that.

What I can say is that specifically in regard to Pornhub or MindGeek, the call for a criminal investigation is under review—and any further action that's required. We've been working with the police of jurisdiction in that case. If there is the necessary information that leads us to launch the investigation, the investigation will be launched—unequivocally. If that investigation gives us the evidence to lay charges, those charges will be laid. I'll tell you that there are no people more committed than those in law enforcement when it comes to child and sexual exploitation.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I guess from your answer I can deduce that no charges have [Technical difficulty—Editor] but you can understand how deeply disturbing that would be to every single Canadian listening in, given the years during which children and women, against their consent, have been victimized and revictimized over and over.

Can I just ask you, really simply, what the hell is going on, then? How could it be that undertaking an investigation is under consideration right now and there have been no charges?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Investigations such as this are very.... They don't happen overnight, and there are obviously always gaps in the information. What happens, for example, is that when we get reporting, we have to make sure, especially when we're talking about child exploitation or sexual exploitation, that those files fall within the age group of a child, so that's one challenge. Often we get several reports, and unfortunately they don't fall within that category, so of course they're put to the side. There's a whole science behind that, and there's a lot of work that goes into just identifying the ages online. It's not an easy science. It's based on the maturation, and it's based on experts who have that training. We also—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Pardon me, Commissioner. I'll let you finish that thought, and then we're going to go to Mr. Dong. I apologize.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We've taken the reports that we have received from Pornhub/MindGeek, and many of those reports fell into that category, and the ones that didn't, they get brought to the police of jurisdiction immediately, and those are referred to go into further investigation. As soon as they meet those thresholds, then the investigation is completely launched. Then it takes a while to get through the evidence, of course, and then, once we have the evidence, we lay the charge. The charge will be laid, and that's when it's made public.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Dong, we'll turn to you.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Commissioner Lucki, thank you very much for coming to the committee and answering some questions.

First things first, when the story broke, it raised a lot of tensions in the public. I've been getting a lot of questions from my constituents in Don Valley North who are asking what they should do if they ever encounter a situation like that or any evidence of a child being exploited. I'm hoping that you very quickly can tell us a bit more about the National Child Exploitation Crime Centre.

Does it provide 24-hour service? What kind of service is there? What can any member of the public do if they sense that there's a crime taking place?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Obviously, when people are privy to that information, they need to go to their police of jurisdiction first and foremost. We work with the National Child Exploitation Crime Centre and have tried to connect that centre with industry because having [Technical difficulty—Editor] increases the education from industry. They are mandated to address the online child sexual exploitation and are available 24-7. They work to try to get voluntary compliance from industry, but they also provide that service.

As soon as they find things that come to their attention, they quickly bring that to law enforcement and then we help law enforcement. If it's not within our RCMP jurisdiction, we make sure that it is brought to the police of jurisdiction and assist in any way we can.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

You mentioned that industry has to voluntarily report this. However, as you heard earlier, there have been a lot of questions about whether the law is sufficient in making those requirements on industry and their responsibility of protecting the kids. Going forward, my suggestion is that, as we complete this study, if you have any suggestions on how to strengthen the legislation in that aspect, we'd be happy to hear about it.

My other question is that it's been reported that since mid last year, the RCMP has received in excess of hundreds of reports related to Pornhub through the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Obviously I'm not looking for specifics of an investigation if there's one, but what is the process when the RCMP receives these reports?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Obviously the [Technical difficulty—Editor] work through the RCMP National Child Exploitation Crime Centre. When they receive those reports, as we also do internationally through the national crime centre in the United States, we take those and ensure that they are referred to a Canadian law enforcement agency. Often we'll put together an investigative package if we can and bring that to our agencies. Once they get that, then they can initiate an investigation.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

We heard from a lot of members. There are obviously questions about jurisdictional responsibilities. Is this a Canadian company subject to Canadian law?

In your opinion, is there anything we can do to make it clearer so that these investigations can take place? Obviously, we've heard there's a lot of evidence out there, but an investigation hasn't been launched.