Evidence of meeting #20 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
The surveillance might be visible with body-worn cameras, static cameras, etc. There may be operational reasons for those to be deployed. Whether they're used for FRT would not be visible to the people who are at those events.
I don't understand whether they're suspicious that they're used or they have some sort of evidence that they were used.
12:15 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
No, but I can't say that categorically for the entire Toronto Police Service.
12:15 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
I could take that away and see if that were the case.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you.
I have one final question. As chief information officer, you're responsible for—
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
You're over time, Mr. Bains.
With that, we'll go to Monsieur Garon for two and a half minutes.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Mr. Chair, I will put my questions again to Mr. Sage, hoping this time to get an answer.
With regard to the use of Clearview AI technology, Mr. Sage, I sense you are filled with contrition.
If you had it to do over again, would you do things differently or would you do exactly what you did?
12:15 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I don't understand the question.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
If the situation arose again today, would you act differently? Would you change your approach to using Clearview AI technology?
12:15 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
Can you ask the question again, please?
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Mr. Chair, is it possible to get my time back? I will have to repeat my question for the third time.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Thank you very much.
Do you have any regrets about the way you used Clearview AI technologies? If you had to do it over again, would you do exactly the same thing?
12:15 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
Yes, I think that what we're doing now, going through the NTOP process to do that full review, is a good thing. It's as important as a privacy assessment. That was not done back then, and I wish it had been done.
I think it's a good process, and we've learned from that. We can now implement a better process. I wish the NTOP process had been in place back then. It wasn't, but we've learned from that. We've moved forward to create a great process to ensure that the privacy and rights of Canadians are maintained.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Do you think that the establishment of such a process could prevent possible abuses in the use of these technologies?
12:15 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
Yes, I do. It would prevent things from going off the rails. That's why we support it.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
So you acknowledge the fact that, even when you used it twice, in any case, with two licences, in 2018, there was a risk and the commissioner's fears were justified.
12:20 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
It was 2019, and not 2018, when they were purchased. They were given to the officers on the ground level to make that decision. They did, and I believe, probably, inappropriately. There could have been a better way, but they were working in an environment that didn't have the NTOP process, and that process, which is in place now, would minimize those things from going awry as you described.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
I am pleased to hear that, finally, you recognize the facts that the commissioner has mentioned. I'm going to take advantage of this moment of candour, Mr. Chair, to make a motion.
I note that from the beginning we have had few answers to our questions. So I would like to formally request by way of a motion that no later than June 1, documents be tabled by the RCMP. I would like to have any contracts and licensing agreements, unredacted, that have been entered into in the last five years with the company Clearview AI, as well as any ethical analysis that has been conducted by the RCMP prior to the use of such technology, or, if none exists, confirmation that no analysis has been conducted.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you, Monsieur Garon.
The motion is in order, as I see it.
Ms. Khalid, do you wish to speak to the motion?
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Mr. Chair, I recommend that we suspend while we get the text of the motion by email. I apologize. As I was listening, I didn't catch all of the wording. Is that okay?
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I still have a two-and-half-minute round left. I'm wondering, for the courtesy of the round, if we could allow them to work on the wording of the motion while I ask my questions.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
If there is no debate on the motion now, okay, I get your point. I would like to proceed that way if we can.