Evidence of meeting #30 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nurses.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rob Slinger  Chief Executive Officer, Regina Airport Authority
David Marit  President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
Bryan Nylander  President and Chief Executive Officer, North West Regional College, Council of CEOs of Saskatchewan's Regional Colleges
Marlene Brown  First Vice-President, Saskatchewan Union of Nurses
Lisa Jategaonkar  Director of Communications, Genome Prairie
Colin Taylor  Co-Chair, Investment and Growth Committee, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce
Marlene Smadu  President, Canadian Nurses Association
Clyde Graham  Vice-President, Strategy and Alliances, Canadian Fertilizer Institute
Hamid Javed  Chair, Board of Directors, Saskatchewan Council for International Cooperation
Gord Steeves  Councillor, City of Winnipeg; First Vice-President, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
John Schmeiser  Executive Vice-President, Canada West Equipment Dealers Association
James Knight  Chief Executive Officer, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you very much, Mr. Savage.

Mr. St-Cyr, you have five minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to all our witnesses who took the time to come and meet with us this morning. I will put my question to Mr. Taylor, from the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce.

Representatives for chambers of commerce who meet with us in Ottawa and other people that we will meet in various regions of the country are all calling for tax cuts, more specifically corporate tax cuts. They do this very well, in great detail providing good explanations and quite interesting details. However, we are never told how these cuts could be financed. Where should we make cutbacks to allow for these tax cuts?

I will give you a short list of suggestions. I would like you to set out priority areas where we could make cutbacks in order to finance tax cuts. Of the top of my head this morning I think of: increasing airport taxes, reducing college funding, cutting health care, funds for Genome Canada or the Canadian Agricultural Income Stabilization Program.

Where should we start?

9:35 a.m.

Co-Chair, Investment and Growth Committee, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

Colin Taylor

I think you've hit everybody at the end of the table. Thank you.

Quite frankly, we have not done a very detailed outline as to what the impact of any of the tax cuts would be on the Canadian federal budget. We did that work in some significant detail with the recent corporate tax review by the Province of Saskatchewan.

What we did see and have seen over the last number of years is that where corporate taxes were cut, it increased investment. In Saskatchewan, at least, we went through a period of time when personal income taxes were cut dramatically, and the take by the government from personal income taxes was increased substantially because of that, because of growth and growth opportunities.

Quite frankly, our point is that there are opportunities for businesses and individuals to locate elsewhere. Our tax system has to be competitive. We are in a surplus position right now, both federally and provincially in many of the jurisdictions, and this is the time when we build for our future, so that my son, grandson, and granddaughter have some place to work, live, and be as happy as we have been growing up in Canada.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

I see that Mr. Slinger has something to add.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Yes indeed, Mr. Slinger had a comment to make on this.

9:35 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Regina Airport Authority

Rob Slinger

Your question is an interesting one.

I have a different perspective on things. Ten years ago, Canadian airports came under Transport Canada's jurisdiction. Since then, some airports have been removed from the department's jurisdiction, but the department has more responsibilities. I can't understand this because safety regulations are very important to Transport Canada. With respect to airports administration and operation, why build an empire in Ottawa and not in other Canadian cities? I don't understand.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

You are saying that we could cut the bureaucracy to focus on priorities.

9:40 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Regina Airport Authority

Rob Slinger

Yes, there are priorities, but the system itself has expanded. I just don't understand.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

All right.

Mr. Taylor, you put forward a number of measures which in your opinion could practically self-financed. Based on the doctrine adopted by Mr. Reagan in the United States for several years, tax cuts would lead to such economic growth that they would be self-financing. It did not work too well for the US because their debt mushroomed over that period.

I would like to get back to various corporate incentive measures. If we had to make a choice, should we take measures to directly support investment, like accelerated depreciation, or rather should we start with general corporate tax cuts, for instance?

9:40 a.m.

Co-Chair, Investment and Growth Committee, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

Colin Taylor

Any tax cuts that you're considering as a committee would have to be very focused. The problems that you mentioned in the United States with Reaganomics were a clear case of somebody following a doctrine and not checking that the results they expected were being obtained.

I again give the example of Saskatchewan and the personal income taxes. I reiterate that the critical point is that we live in a competitive environment. If there are opportunities for corporations and individuals to locate in other parts of the world where the taxation regime means there is a better ROI or a better net after-tax income position for them, those are decisions that people are going to make, and they'll vote with their feet. And Marlene mentioned that there are a number of people in Saskatchewan who are voting with their feet.

So, yes, it would be nice, in a perfect world, to have all the money to spend, to reduce debt, to do all the other things, but you have to remember that the investment climate and the personal tax environment have to be such that people want to be here. And yes, they do have choices in today's world.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Merci, Monsieur St-Cyr.

We continue now with you, Madame Ablonczy. Seven minutes to you.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to pick up on that line of discussion.

We have seen other jurisdictions that have made themselves investment-friendly and have actually seen their money for social programs, social spending, social support systems, increase significantly. Have you made any studies of this? Can you comment on such jurisdictions and how the right balance, in your view, needs to be struck on those issues?

9:40 a.m.

Co-Chair, Investment and Growth Committee, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

Colin Taylor

Again, our most recent research on taxation, and particularly corporate taxation, was relative to Saskatchewan. A lot of the recommendations that we made to the Vicq commission here in Saskatchewan were acted upon by the Minister of Finance of Saskatchewan.

One of the comparatives that we use, of course, is the comparison to the province to our immediate west, but we also compared our corporate tax regime and personal tax regime to those of the five provinces west of Quebec. We did see that a number of corporations did not locate here, moved from here, or did not continue to invest here because of the taxation climate. One tax in particular was the corporate capital tax, and that's one that is being eliminated or has been eliminated here.

So in terms of a general review, I don't have any specific and detailed data at my fingertips, but we did see a very significant outflow of capital when we did the research here in Saskatchewan.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

It's a balancing act for sure, and there are certainly a lot of opinions about where the balance should be struck.

I wanted to speak with Ms. Brown about the nursing shortage. I was particularly struck by your comments about the need for better recruitment. Are there enough nursing training spaces in our universities? Do we need to expand those? Or is it just a matter of keeping the nurses that we train in Canada to fill the need for medical personnel?

9:45 a.m.

First Vice-President, Saskatchewan Union of Nurses

Marlene Brown

Thank you.

No, there is no simple answer to the nursing crisis right now. The shortage is in a crisis state. It will require an increase in the education seats. It requires recruitment of nurses, perhaps of the ones who have left to come home, or perhaps of those who have retired because of the workload and the practice environment. Perhaps they could be enticed to come back if those things could be improved. Perhaps retention of those who are considering retiring in the near future is possible.

We have a higher-than-average average age in our workforce, and we need to look at the impact of those retirements on the system. I think our brief would have alluded to it, but I believe one-third of our workforce could be retiring by 2010. Those retirements are going to have a big impact, and we need to work right now at addressing that impact.

We need to look at what we can do to retain the senior, experienced nurses. Those are valuable nurses. When you think about a fast changeover, the experience that those nurses have needs to be transferred to a newer, younger workforce as well. A multifaceted approach needs to be taken, because there are a lot of issues to consider.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

It's a serious issue for sure, particularly as the population ages.

Mr. Slinger, we have met with different airport authorities—our own airport authority in Calgary, for example—and one of the things they've suggested is that the government simply transfer the airport land to the airport authority. That scares some people, because then government has no control and you have this rogue group running our airports. Can you speak to that concern?

9:45 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Regina Airport Authority

Rob Slinger

Yes. Indeed, I would like to be the number-two airport after Calgary to own the dirt.

Government has tremendous influence over airports through the inspection system and through the setting of the regulations that control the operations of the airport. The Government of Canada doesn't own your car, but you license your car, you have a licence, and you follow regulations. The Government of Canada does not own the airlines, but the airlines follow regulations. Why does the Government of Canada have to own the dirt and therefore tie my hands economically? I have tremendous difficulty running a business when I have to spend eighteen months getting paperwork approvals to have a new client come and rent land at the airport. If I owned that land, I could rent it and turn it around in single-digit business days.

So the Government of Canada has tremendous responsibility in safety, security, and regulating, through inspections, those systems. But they don't need to own the dirt to exercise those authorities.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

That's very helpful.

I want to talk about genome research. There have been some hot debates in Parliament about GMOs—genetically modified organisms—and how they might be a health problem. You talked about new strains of wheat and other research that would help Saskatchewan and other areas. Can you speak to these concerns about GMOs and their effects on humans?

9:45 a.m.

Director of Communications, Genome Prairie

Lisa Jategaonkar

Sure.

First of all, genomics is the study of genes, so it can be applied both to genetically modified crops, to GMOs, like you mentioned, as well as to other traditional breeding methods and quite a wide range of different breeding methods. For example, I talked about frost-tolerant wheat. That has actually been developed through a non-GMO method. I also talked about higher-yielding crops, and we are looking at GMO approaches to those.

There have been lots of questions about genetically modified foods. It's important to note that certain genetically modified foods are offering very good advantages to this region. For example, about 75% to 80% of canola growers in this region are using genetically modified canola because of the advantages it confers on the farm. Having said that, it's very important that we be aware of consumer acceptability, while also being aware of what our export markets are concerned with in terms of genetically modified crops.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

I'll cut you off there, because Ms. Ablonczy's time has elapsed.

We'll move over to Judy Wasylycia-Leis. Continue please.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Thanks to all of you.

I'd like to start with education, and colleges in particular, because I think you've identified a clear problem in terms of this whole competitive agenda.

We've heard from a number of college representatives. We know there are waiting lists all over the country. If you had one recommendation to deal with this, what would it be? And not to put words in your mouth, but one of the suggestions was that we need to actually not only have a direct transfer for post-secondary education, but within that, a direct transfer for colleges so that you get your fair share.

9:50 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, North West Regional College, Council of CEOs of Saskatchewan's Regional Colleges

Bryan Nylander

That's a loaded question.

The one thing that I think would most benefit the country would be a national agenda. I do think there is a reluctance when I hear of waiting lists in other jurisdictions, and I wonder if places like Saskatchewan have the capacity to offset some of the waiting lists that may exist in other provinces. I would suggest that, yes, there may be capacity in other provincial institutions. With the lack of a national agenda on this question, though, will it ever be addressed?

On the transfer directly to the college system, again, there are people who make decisions about the proportion of post-secondary resources that get transferred to universities or to colleges. I assume they are very wise folks who make those decisions. Again, though, if I look at the needs in the skills training sector, we're falling further and further behind in satisfying the needs of Canada, so I do think there needs to be an improvement in the level of resourcing to the system.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Thank you.

I'm going to go on to Mr. David Marit, and I want Mr. Taylor to have a chance to respond to this as well.

Many of the chambers across this country have suggested that we actually deal first with eliminating our debt and that we deal first with tax cuts. If we did all that, there might not be anything left over for investment, so I'm just wondering what the right balance would be. What would the crisis be in rural Saskatchewan, in rural Canada, if we didn't invest now in some of the areas you identified and if we waited the time that's suggested?

9:50 a.m.

President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities

David Marit

As I said in my presentation, on the biodiesel file--I'll use that file for an example--if we wait, we are going to lose it. I wouldn't give it until the end of 2007. The U.S. industry is ready to go on the biodiesel file. They're moving on it. I'm a farmer who is close to the U.S. border, and my canola can be hauled down to that plant rather than being hauled here. This is a file that has to move very quickly.

We have numbers that show that if you invest in communities and in producer-ownership, the revenue that is made from those plants stays in those communities and they invest back into those communities. The number we're using is similar to the number used in the United States by community-owned and producer-owned facilities: 48% of the net profit stays in those communities, versus going to shareholders or going outside. In return, you hire your local banker, you use your local bank, you use your local lawyers and accountants. So it's huge.

I don't think you can wait on this file, on the ag file, to move in the biofuel industry. I would hope this government will move very quickly on this file.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Thank you.

Mr. Taylor, I'd like you to respond to that and also to Marlene Brown's presentation. I think what she's saying is that if we don't invest now in dealing with the nursing shortage, by the time you need a nurse, there might not be one for you. If we put all our eggs in one basket, we have a serious problem in terms of a very important part of our life support, so I'm just wondering what you think the appropriate balance is.