Evidence of meeting #6 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre Le François  General Director, Association nationale des éditeurs de livres
Claire Morris  President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada
Darryl Smith  President, Canadian Dental Association
Bob Harvey  Member, Tax and Fiscal Policy Committee, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
David Bradley  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Pierre Sadik  Senior Policy Advisor, Sustainability Specialist, David Suzuki Foundation
Nathalie Bourque  Vice-President, Global Communications, CAE Inc., SR & ED Tax Credit Coalition
Peter Look  Vice-President, Tax, Nortel, SR & ED Tax Credit Coalition
Carole Presseault  Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Susan Mullin  Vice-President of Development, Association of Fundraising Professionals
Margaret Lefebvre  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Income Funds
Chris Tabor  Manager, Queen's University Bookstore, Canadian Booksellers Association
Michael Atkinson  President, Canadian Construction Association
Gerry Barr  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council for International Cooperation
Amanda Aziz  National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students
Mark Yakabuski  President and Chief Executive Officer, Insurance Bureau of Canada

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

That's true, it's not a serious question, but it is his last one.

We'll now move on to Mr. St-Cyr.

6:10 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is for Ms. Aziz. I am always interested in issues related to education, having myself been part of student associations. I know that here in Canada, two major associations or federations are battling for support from students. Two of the recommendations you make at the beginning of your brief talk about the need for a national system of needs-based grants.

As you were making your opening statement, you looked at me and added that this included a number of adjustments for Quebec. However, although I may be mistaken, I found no reference to that in the fairly detailed brief that you submitted. For example, one of Quebec's traditional demands has been that it be able to opt out with unconditional and full financial compensation, if such a program were to be introduced. The fact that this concern is not mentioned in your brief can possibly be explained by your representation. I see that in Quebec, there are only two university associations and one college association from Quebec.

Does your organization consider Quebec—something that was recognized by this Parliament, by all parties—to be a nation, with the right to set its own educational policies? If a national needs-based grant program, or any other program, were to be set up in Canada, would you support the idea of Quebec having the right to opt out with full and unconditional financial compensation under such a program?

6:15 p.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Amanda Aziz

Thanks for the question.

We represent four student unions in Quebec. And as we spoke about last year in committee, we work very closely with FEUQ, which is the federation of university students in Quebec.

Our policy does dictate that we believe, in the same way that Quebec right now does not participate in the Canada student loans program, in the same way other students in other provinces do, that the way the money is currently being allocated to Quebec students should continue. Right now, Quebec does a very good job, actually, of matching upfront grants with loans. Our policy and our membership support the idea that this money would continue to flow through that way.

So in fact, yes, recognizing the fact that Quebec right now has its own separate agreements with the federal program and it's working very well for Quebec students....

Our proposal actually goes further than that and is trying to look to Quebec as an example for the rest of the provinces as well, to use that agreement that's in place in Quebec and encourage the federal government to move forward and create similar agreements with other provinces in that way.

6:15 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

In that case, it would be a good idea to state that in the brief you have submitted. The way it's written here suggests that you are in favour of national programs, the conditions of which would apply to all provinces, including Quebec.

Your fourth recommendation goes even further, since you talk about the need for a Post-Secondary Education Act, such as exists for health care. The Bloc Québécois is very strongly opposed to that. Indeed, in Quebec, all the student associations are unanimously opposed to that idea.

That said, once again, would you be prepared to support the inclusion of a clause in such legislation excluding Quebec? Recently, the NDP tabled a bill on daycare services. We supported it because it contains such a clause. We do not want to prevent Canada from developing as it deems necessary, but we do want Quebec to be able to continue to do what it believes is appropriate. Would you be prepared to support a Post-Secondary Education Act that did not apply to Quebec?

6:15 p.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Amanda Aziz

Actually, in regard to the two major programs we're putting forward--this national system of need-based grants to flow through the Canada student loans program--right now the Canada student loans program does have separate provisions for Quebec. So when we state that this national system of need-based grants needs to run through the Canada student loans program, we're de facto endorsing the system that currently exists, which is a separate system that is negotiated with Quebec. That is reflected in a lot of the other research we put forward. It's reflected already in the current system of the Canada student loans program.

In regard to the proposed post-secondary education act, we have worked closely with the Canadian Association of University Teachers. In that draft legislation there is a specific reference to Quebec's ability to opt out of it. That's reflected in our policy; it's also reflected in our research.

I appreciate your comment about putting it directly into our finance brief. We were severely limited in terms of the number of pages we were able to produce for the committee this year, but that is absolutely reflected in our policy.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Mr. Wallace.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for coming.

My first question is for Ms. Mullin from York University. I appreciate your letting us know that the system we put in place for those who are donating stocks and bonds is actually working and that you're able to do that.

If we were to move in the direction of adding land and buildings to that exemption, has your organization looked at what it would cost the treasury? Do you have any sense of what that would be?

6:20 p.m.

Vice-President of Development, Association of Fundraising Professionals

Susan Mullin

We've been really challenged by that question of how far it would extend. We even tried to look at gifts of ecological property to see what the impact might be. We had a very hard time putting an actual quantitative number on gifts of security; we've not been able to identify that yet.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Was there any consideration of doing it on a gradual basis, in the sense that if I'm donating a piece of land to York, I might not be able to write off 100% of the value as a charitable donation, but maybe part of it? Has that been looked at, at all?

6:20 p.m.

Vice-President of Development, Association of Fundraising Professionals

Susan Mullin

We could look at that; to date we have not. We'd be very happy to sit down and talk about how we could implement this in a staged manner.

We feel it doesn't need to be in a staged manner. We think the ecological gifts program actually is a really good example of how it could work without having to stage it, but we'd be very willing to sit down and talk about it.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Do you see that applying mostly to educational institutions, hospitals, municipalities? Who would benefit from this, if it happened to be...?

6:20 p.m.

Vice-President of Development, Association of Fundraising Professionals

Susan Mullin

I think educational institutions are one group that would be well served by this provision, but we also see a real opportunity for small municipal organizations and rural-based organizations to receive gifts of property that those charities may turn around and sell and use for their programming costs, so they wouldn't be retaining the property. We see it happening across the board.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Okay.

The balance of my questions are for Amanda. I used to be president of the University of Guelph.... I see it's one of your members.

In the previous panel we had the universities' and colleges' organization here--the associations and the management of those. It was all about research dollars and attracting postgraduate students. There was no mention of tuition or access in their discussion.

Regarding the review you provided me with today and what you said, I just want to be clear: are you asking us to wipe out tuition altogether, and it would go on their tax base for future years for anyone who graduates? Is that what you're actually advocating?

6:20 p.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Amanda Aziz

No. I threw that in there because right now there is a focus on a user-fee model; people pay up front in order to participate in post-secondary education. The difficulty is that it's creating these gross inequities when students graduate, depending on how much they need to borrow and how much they end up owing in the end.

What we're proposing is that we reduce those upfront barriers--reduce the need for students to borrow in the first place--to try to create a more equitable system. We're concerned with not just how many students are enrolled but with what kinds of students are able to participate and how they're going to be able to repay their debt once they graduate.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

I've had you guys in my office. I've had your colleagues, who represent a different organization and have a different attitude on the Millennium Scholarship Foundation, which I think has been mentioned.

My view--and you tell me if I'm wrong--is that instead of fighting each other on this item, why isn't there one program? The millennium program is grants. The student loan program is obviously loans--it's called loans. It's supported by the banks, I suppose; the loans go to the banks now, right? Can your two organizations not get together and come up with a plan for one that has a mix of loans and grants, with one administration to run it?

I'm not necessarily convinced that having a third party doing it, other than government, is a bad thing. When I worked municipally, we had third-party organizations run stuff that was really municipal, but it has been very efficient and very effective in terms of leveraging other people to get involved. What is the barrier to your getting together and figuring that out for us?

6:20 p.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Amanda Aziz

I'm really glad you asked that, because in fact our proposal is very similar to what you just suggested, and that's a mixture of grants and loans being done by one central body.

The problem right now with the way in which grants are being administered is that there is a whole confusing patchwork of different programs, so part of our proposal is to simplify that. It's not just to simplify that from a student's perspective, but to ensure there's efficiency and effectiveness from the government's perspective.

The representative from the AUCC just handed me one of their briefs, which also talks about the need for student financial assistance and need-based support. Our proposal very much does that and proposes a grant/loan package that's indivisible, that's provided to students at the time they register, at the time they are accepted to university and college.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We have time for just two more questioners. I'm going to split the time between them, so they'll have two minutes each. We'll have a couple of quick questions from Mr. Pacetti, and then we'll go to Mr. Del Mastro for the last two.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing. I'm going to ask three quick questions, and then I'll have the chairman decide how to best manage the time.

My first question is for Ms. Lefebvre.

On the original tax leakage numbers that the government had--about $500 million--do you have any reports as to whether that amount is correct? From the numbers we have, the government to date has lost about $900 million of revenue due to certain trust funds being converted, sold, or being taken over by foreigners. So I'd like your opinion on that.

Mr. Barr, what's happening with Bill C-293? I know it's being held up in the Senate. Why is that happening?

Amanda, just quickly, I know you've been talking about lowering fees and things, and access to grants and loans, but how do we increase enrolment? That's a big problem. In Quebec we have the lowest tuition fees, but that's not helping to increase enrolment? Do you have any ideas specifically about enrolment?

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

This is how I'm going to do it. You have about 15 seconds each, so you'll have to answer very quickly.

6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Income Funds

Margaret Lefebvre

That information has been deposited with this committee on several occasions, the last few times we've been here. I'd be more than glad to pass it on to you after this meeting.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you.

6:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council for International Cooperation

Gerry Barr

Bill C-293 was introduced in second reading by Roméo Dallaire, who is the Senate sponsor of the bill, on October 25. I'm happy to tell you that today Mr. Segal responded for the government to Mr. Dallaire's speech. So my hope is the result will be that it will have been referred to the Senate committee, but that was just happening as I arrived here, so I'm not able to tell you for sure.

About 10,000 Canadians signed a petition asking the Senate to act on this.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Okay, now you only have about five seconds.

6:25 p.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Amanda Aziz

Yes, you should come and talk to me after this.

I think there are a lot of different measures. One of them obviously is reducing upfront barriers, but another is targeted programs specifically for low-income Canadians, for aboriginal Canadians. I think there are a lot of specific measures that need to be done for those who are currently underrepresented in our system.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Okay, Margaret, please pass that information through the clerk to him.

Thank you.

Dean.