Evidence of meeting #6 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Gordon  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Chief Lucien Wabanonik  Grand Chief of the Anishnabeg Nation, Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador
Gilbert Whiteduck  Chief, Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg, Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador
Michèle Asselin  President, Fédération des femmes du Québec
François Roy  Representative, Front d'action populaire en réaménagement urbain
Geoffrey Grenville-Wood  General Counsel, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Pierre Beauchamp  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Real Estate Association
David Bradley  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Pierre Patry  Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Guy Chevrette  President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council
David Paradis  President, Quebec Federation of University Students
Ian Boyko  Government Relations Coordinator, Canadian Federation of Students
Claire Morris  President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada
Michel Vincent  Director, Economics and Markets, Quebec Forest Industry Council
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-François Pagé

12:40 p.m.

Government Relations Coordinator, Canadian Federation of Students

Ian Boyko

I guess it all depends on how it will hit the ground. The budget was very clear about the priority being given to projects that build research capacity or something to that effect. To me, that doesn't include teaching. It can be interpreted to exclude teaching investments. That's a concern for us. So when it does hit the ground, we want to make sure that labs aren't the only things benefiting from the infrastructure funding in the budget, and that classrooms and other teaching-related facilities get that funding. I hope it plays out that way. I don't see the word “teaching” in the budget when it comes to priority items; I only see “research”. That's a significant concern for us.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

Monsieur Carrier.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

I would like to repeat that we are looking at a budget and wondering whether it really is geared to meeting the needs of people facing a significant economic crisis, given all the deficiencies that we have heard listed this morning. Quebec has been particularly vociferous in criticizing the budget. I am wondering about the government's real intentions towards Quebec, which it has recognized as a nation. Does the government see Quebec as a nation to be eliminated, or to be set aside?

I would like to come back to something Mr. Chevrette said—he said that this morning he wanted us to hear his cry from the heart. I think he is quite right. I wonder whether representatives of the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party have heard his cry from the heart. Think about the huge economic importance of the forest industry in the regions, and think of the other considerations you mentioned, for example the urgency of having the government guarantee loans. We know that the current government has already announced $2.7 billion in loan guarantees for the auto industry, which is concentrated in Ontario.

What is your view of the government's intentions regarding the forest industry in Quebec? Are you saying that forest companies will end up closing down one by one, and no longer be there when the economic renewal comes around? Will that be the end of the forest industry? Could you please expand on your comments on the forest industry's immediate future?

12:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

Before coming here, I read chapter 3 of the budget very carefully, page by page. On page 67, the government announces $200 billion. On page 74, the government explained that this refers to providing financing for credit markets, $200 billion for credit markets that will save Canada.

On pages 78 to 83, the government describes what it calls the extraordinary financing framework, but I found no words on forests. On page 81, the budget describes the business credit availability program, which is to be made available in times of economic uncertainty. We found our situation compared with the lobster crisis in Prince Edward Island. On page 170, we find that we are been given $170 million over two years. However, on page 185, we discover that those $170 million are intended for forestry marketing and innovation, and nothing more. There's not one red cent to pay for anything else. We will need loan guarantees at commercial rates to save our shirts. We're all going to die, we're in agony. We're not talking about marketing, we're talking about survival.

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chevrette.

It is sad to see that the government does not seem to recognize the situation.

I would like to put my question to the two representatives of student associations. We have all been students in our day, myself included. You find it unfortunate that the grants and bursaries the government wants to establish would be awarded only to students in the disciplines that the government has targeted. In your view, is the government taking an ideological stance in including this measure in a budget that ignores provincial jurisdiction? As we know, in Canada as it is today, education is an area under provincial jurisdiction. Yet, in its wisdom, the federal government is suddenly targeting student groups. Could you give me a brief answer, please?

12:45 p.m.

President, Quebec Federation of University Students

David Paradis

Exactly. Education comes under provincial jurisdiction. All the federal government has to do is provide funding, and give provinces the financial means to spend what they need to spend in their area of expertise. That does not exclude research. There is some ambiguity, constitutionally speaking, with regard to each level of government's role in research, but in the absence of any indication to the contrary, it comes under provincial jurisdiction. Thus, research funding should be disbursed out through existing granting organizations in Quebec.

The fact that some disciplines are specified, and strongly targeted, unfortunately reveals poor understanding of the academic environment, which can produce totally unexpected research and innovation results, without such results having been provided for in advance, somehow by remote control. In fact, our greatest breakthroughs are often unexpected. Take Watson and Crick's discovery of the DNA helix, for example. Nobody had sponsored it, yet its discovery had a huge impact. Take the studies carried out on bats, which made it possible to build radar technology, which contributed to overcoming the Nazis during World War II. That had not been forecast either, but had an unprecedented and tremendous impact. So it is truly deplorable that only some disciplines have been targeted. Every discipline is capable of coming out with major advances for the country. That freedom is what we would like to see.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Merci.

Mr. Boyko, very briefly, if you want to respond.

12:45 p.m.

Government Relations Coordinator, Canadian Federation of Students

Ian Boyko

Just briefly, this is a very dangerous road that the government is going down in picking and choosing which fields are valuable. I don't think that's its role. This is a three-year increase to the Canada graduate scholarship. This is only for three years. What do we expect these business students to produce in three years? I just don't understand. I'm not clear about what the reasoning is for why these fields for only three years at this time. It's not clear to me.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Wallace, please.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank the witnesses for coming today.

I'd like to correct the record on some of the things that have been said. I hope the opposition members are listening, because it's not anything that I'm making up; it is straight facts.

If you turn to page 189, for example.... I don't criticize that you're coming here to ask for more money. I've been on the budget committee for three years, and I hear every year about more money and so on. But just to be absolutely factual, the health transfer to the provinces is going up by 6%, at $22.6 billion a year, and the Canadian social transfer is going up by 3%, as promised.

Then there was a question about equalization. For the whole country equalization is $14 billion in round numbers, and in this budget $8 billion of that $14 billion goes to Quebec. The next closest province is Manitoba, at $2 billion. If you look at the change from 2006-07, even if you went back as far as 2005-06, in 2008-09 it goes from almost $4.8 billion to $8 billion, a significant increase in equalization payments, as deserved by the formula that has been agreed to by all the provinces through our constitutional discussions that happened. That money has actually been flowing through equalization. It's in black and white; it's nothing that I have made up. It's available to anybody who wants to see the actual figures.

In chapter 3, which was mentioned before, we talked about sectoral competitiveness. In this section we have money and changes and improvements for short-term stimulus for forestry, for agriculture, for the Canada space industry, for shipbuilding, for the automotive industry--which is important in my area of Burlington, with Ford right next door in Oakville--for culture and sport, for tourism. It's all listed there on the moneys we're putting toward these programs for a short-term stimulus to make these things happen.

In the pre-budget consultations we heard over and over again from organizations about money needed for infrastructure and putting it forward. We have done that for colleges and universities. I can tell you, this past week when I was in my riding I had a meeting with the chamber of commerce. They had an open forum for those who are political action organizations. There were 85 people there. The local community college was there, Mohawk College, asking about the money, happy that the money was there. I'm glad I'm hearing some positive feedback that the money has been set aside. But for us to get it out the door, we need to get this passed.

I'll give you another example. We heard from the forestry industry in January about how important work-share had been as an employment piece to their organizations to make sure they are able to keep their employees working at least part of the week. We've extended work-share in this budget by 14 weeks.

I would just like to say that I appreciate the comments that we're hearing today, and I also appreciate the comment from the colleges and universities representative saying, “We fully understand that everything cannot be accomplished in one budget and that the January investments represent only a part of the multi-year plan this government has put forward in its science and technology strategy, but not just in that strategy, but in many of the things we have tried to accomplish.”

My point is that we have listened. We have implemented much of what you've heard today. I was feeling that we had to put the record straight on what is actually in this stimulus package, in this economic plan, in this implementation legislation that we have here.

I appreciate the time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Wallace.

We'll go to Mr. Pacetti, please.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC

Point of Order, Mr. Chairman.

Having heard Mr. Wallace's impassioned comments, some people, particularly Mr. Chevrette, would like a chance to respond. Could they be extended that courtesy?

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Wallace unfortunately used his time, and there are many members here who have been making statements all day today. As I've been advised in the past, the fact of the matter is members have a fair amount of leeway on how they choose to use their time. Obviously preference for the witnesses would be for questions, but members can choose to make statements if that's how they wish to use their time.

We'll go to Mr. Pacetti.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be brief.

Mr. Chevrette, in January or February 2008, a sum of about $1 billion was earmarked for innovative ideas in the manufacturing sector. A percentage of this sum was supposed to go to your industry. Was that money made available to you? Have you received some of it?

12:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

There are virtually no projects. Those we have at the moment have to do with biomass and co-generation. Very few projects were actually initiated.

There is a discussion of work sharing, and I would take this opportunity to answer Mr. Wallace's question. In order to do work sharing, there has to be a job. When there is full employment, the work may be done by one person, or two, three or four, depending. That is not the situation at this time. We are talking about survival.

You invited me to discuss this issue, and I am here to tell you that in order to survive, we must have access to a loan guarantee at a commercial rate. We have to be ready as soon as there is a recovery. What is going to happen?

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Of the sums that were transferred last year, was there not a certain percentage for the forestry industry?

12:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

As far as I know, the discussions in Quebec are mainly about Quebec programs having to do with cogeneration and biomass.

In addition, many projects are being considered, at Forintek Canada, for example. Universities also have many projects on their drawing boards, but no concrete projects have actually been carried out, which is what you are asking about.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Will the accelerated capital cost allowances be useful to your industry?

12:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

I will ask our economist to reply, but I think that under the circumstances, we could say that it will.

12:55 p.m.

Michel Vincent Director, Economics and Markets, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Definitely, we have been calling for that for a long time, and we were very pleased to get it.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Even though the forestry companies are making almost no money, are some of them making a little money, enough to be able to use this allowance?

12:55 p.m.

Director, Economics and Markets, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Michel Vincent

They must be refundable tax credits, otherwise there is no point.

12:55 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

If you are not paying any income tax...