Evidence of meeting #50 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wines.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Does anyone else have any comments? Does that basically articulate what this bill would do, if the provinces create the appropriate enabling legislation? Have we essentially captured what we're trying to do?
Mr. McWatters, do you have a comment?
5:15 p.m.
Time Estate Winery, Vintage Consulting Group Inc.
On your first question about 100% Canadian, my opinion would be that it wouldn't be trade legal. I'm not sure that Dan understood the question.
The reason I believe it wouldn't be trade legal is that you wouldn't be treating the foreign wine in the same way, because we would exclude it from having the opportunity to be shipped between provinces, so the amendment would be redundant.
I believe that by far the majority of what will be shipped is likely to go directly from the winery producer to the consumer, but this bill certainly doesn't preclude anybody from calling any liquor store in Alberta and having the wine that they can't find, wherever it comes from, shipped across the country. That's actually what makes it trade legal.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. McLeod.
We'll go to Monsieur Giguère, s'il vous plaît, pour cinq minutes.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
My first question is about the very definition of the term "wine" in the bill. It may include a lot of things, such as cider, hard lemonade and wine coolers. This term may also include wine concentrate.
Inasmuch as it is hard to ensure the traceability of products that will be sold locally, what happens when someone buys more than a case? What happens if a restaurateur purchases, in one province, some wine concentrate that comes from abroad? What happens to our capacity to enforce this bill if no liquor control board is going to regulate these sales?
I would like to have some information as to the possibility of this bill opening the door to a market we did not think about, a market that was not supposed to exist, but that is going to appear, such as the wine concentrate market.
5:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Liquor Jurisdictions
Let me take one shot at that.
There are producers in Quebec who bring in 100% Chilean wine, for example, bottle it, and sell it through the depanneur system in Quebec. If the bill goes through and provinces make changes to their regulations, consumers could technically order that product and have it shipped across the country, and it would be 100% Chilean, Argentinian, South African, or what have you.
That is one of our concerns as well, that it creates this business opportunity.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
My second question is about free trade agreements.
At present, to sell wine in a province, it is mandatory to go through a liquor control board, which authorizes redistribution.
Canadian wines are going to be exempt from this obligation and will not be regarded in free trade agreements as a favoured product, an unlawful advantage. If there is a challenge, who is going to pay the legal fees for it?
5:15 p.m.
Time Estate Winery, Vintage Consulting Group Inc.
I'll gladly address that.
First of all, all wines produced in Canada are actually listed with the province in which they are produced. That province may not take possession of it, but in British Columbia you can't sell a product from your cellar door without its being registered with the British Columbia Liquor Distribution Branch. The same is true in other jurisdictions, so that is a situation that would not arise.
Concerning your comment about the concentrate, by the way, they could now go to any UVin store and make wine from concentrate and avoid all of those taxes altogether.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Good.
Let us talk about cider. We can also make ice cider, we can sell a lot of local products. Is there not a risk of the phenomenon of specialized microbreweries popping up, breweries that are going to sell a product widely, on-line, without necessarily complying with provincial legislation?
5:20 p.m.
Time Estate Winery, Vintage Consulting Group Inc.
I'm not sure that I fully understand the question. In an earlier comment, you made it about wine. Wine is actually defined as a product of fully or partially fermented grape juice. That precludes a number of the products that you have talked about, and I believe that under this bill, that would be the case: in order to be called wine, it has to be made from grapes.
It can be made from other fruit, but that fruit must be identified. Cherry wine can't be called wine without being preceded by the word “cherry”.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I think it's a very important question. I know it's coming from Quebec. We are also producing a high-end cider and ice cider, and I think it's really important to include this in this bill and find a wording that includes fermented cider and product from apples.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I just want a short answer. The definition of the term "wine" is given in section 2 of the 1901 Excise Act. This definition of the term "wine" is extremely broad; it even includes hard lemonade. That is the document we will have to work with.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Does anyone want to comment briefly on that? No?
Okay. Merci.
I'm going to take the next round as the chair.
At the outset, Ms. Martinez, I want to allow you to respond briefly on the underage drinking issue.
5:20 p.m.
President, Alberta Liquor Store Association
I will just say quickly that many of the examples that were provided were from the U.S. We don't have any real studies here in Canada, because there's no monitoring that goes on from direct sales.
That's all.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Okay. I want to thank you for that.
Ms. Martinez, I want to follow up with you. As you know, we had a discussion on this bill and did not come to an agreement. You represent an association, many of whose members I know very well and some of whom, I think, actually support this legislation, although as individuals.
You touched on the underage issue. We have touched on the trade issue that you raised. With respect to imposing barriers, though, the logic is really quite odd. Essentially I don't see what your argument is against this particular bill, because according to you, this bill is putting in place what Alberta as a province is currently allowing.
In that case, why are you opposing this specific bill, if it's in fact just putting in place the process that Alberta currently allows under its provincial regulation?
5:20 p.m.
President, Alberta Liquor Store Association
Currently the process goes through AGLC and the liquor stores, and right now that is legal. What Bill C-311 proposes is that you would bypass both of those and would go directly to the consumer, and you are asking the provinces to limit the amount a person would be able to order.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
It's not asking them to limit it; it's saying they have the authority to do so, but it's not asking them to set a limit. In fact, Alberta could leave the same model it has now in place, if this legislation is passed.
5:20 p.m.
President, Alberta Liquor Store Association
Basically, because it would lose the revenue from this liquor product—
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I'll come to that, but on this specific issue of your “imposing barriers” argument...?
5:20 p.m.
President, Alberta Liquor Store Association
I have had discussions with AGLC, and they have informed me that yes, they would have to impose restrictions, much as many of the other provinces would, if Bill C-311 goes through.
5:20 p.m.
President, Alberta Liquor Store Association
It's because you're changing the way liquor is provided to consumers.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
But Alberta, you're saying, currently has a system whereby it allows someone like me who lives in Alberta to go to B.C. and bring wine across the border. You're saying Alberta currently allows that.
That's what this amendment is seeking to do, so why would Alberta, with the adoption of this amendment, have to change the way it does business?