Evidence of meeting #57 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charity.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Blumberg  Lawyer and Partner, Blumberg Segal LLP, CanadianCharityLaw.ca
Michael Cloutier  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Diabetes Association
Kate Bahen  Managing Director, Charity Intelligence Canada
Shawn Pegg  Director, Policy and Research, Food Banks Canada
Mary Dodd  Vice-President, Finance and Operations, Women's College Hospital Foundation
Allyson Hewitt  Director, Social Entrepreneurship, Social Innovation Generation

5:10 p.m.

Director, Social Entrepreneurship, Social Innovation Generation

Allyson Hewitt

Absolutely, there has been leadership in the U.K. They did hold a social finance task force about 10 years prior to Canada. Australia has just launched theirs. We see lots of new dollars being mobilized.

We also see reports from groups like J.P. Morgan and other mainstream financial folks beginning to get this, and estimating that billions will be liberated.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Is there a best practice model in terms of countries, in terms of governance of this emerging social finance model?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Social Entrepreneurship, Social Innovation Generation

Allyson Hewitt

I think lots of folks are figuring it out. Again, I think the U.K. is ahead, but there is lots we can learn from other people. We're actually well positioned to be leaders in this space in Canada through some of the social finance task force and other groups we're working on.

We are working and collaborating with international colleagues on this issue to get at the best practice models.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

We'll go to Ms. Glover for the last round, please.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

I have just three quick points, and then I'm going to give a bit of time to Mr. Jean.

First of all, we've talked about the BIA very briefly, but it actually improves transparency and accountability for all charities. The BIA in fact does not target any environmentalist charities. I just want to make that clear. It isn't mentioned in the BIA in any way, shape, or form. That's something that has become political and partisan.

Nevertheless, there are two things I want to bring up. The $15 million that the food banks save...it would cost to actually implement their suggestion. As I've listened to all of the testimony today, Ms. Bahen has been very clear about.... Two charities had $370 million worth of fraudulent donations.

5:15 p.m.

Managing Director, Charity Intelligence Canada

Kate Bahen

Out of 100, there were two—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

There is $370 million that we should be trying to capture to put into charities. Thank you.

So if I were to ask Canadians if they would rather see corporations get $15 million out of taxpayers' pockets to increase.... Or would you rather we go after the $370 million in fraudulent...? I'm sorry, but I think Canadians are going to say we should put some more money towards enforcement.

So I ask you, do you agree with my assessment or not?

Mr. Blumberg, you're shaking your head.

5:15 p.m.

Lawyer and Partner, Blumberg Segal LLP, CanadianCharityLaw.ca

Mark Blumberg

Yes, I think it's very important not only for the tax revenues, which are just a small piece of it, but also for the public trust, that we make sure that those sorts of schemes are not allowed to take place in Canada.

I think, yes, it can free up some money that could be used for either tax incentives or more government funding of the sector, because remember, more than two-thirds of the revenue of the charities sector comes from government money. Only a small percentage actually comes from fundraising—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Very good. I do have to share my time.

But I do want to ask Ms. Dodd if she can send something in. You touched on bequeathing and you mentioned some incentives you think might work. We don't have time to discuss them. If you could be specific about those suggestions, we would love to receive them in committee, but we've run out of time. I think it is worth mentioning because I think they'll be interesting.

I do have to give my time to Mr. Jean, though.

5:15 p.m.

Vice-President, Finance and Operations, Women's College Hospital Foundation

Mary Dodd

I would just make one point. There is going to be $1 trillion wealth transfer in the next 20 years. This is a study that BMO did. In the United States there will be $40 trillion in wealth transfer, so it's a huge opportunity.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have about two and a half minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ms. Glover.

Ms. Bahen, where does Charity Intelligence Canada get its money from?

5:15 p.m.

Managing Director, Charity Intelligence Canada

Kate Bahen

We are funded by individual donors and some private foundations. Our operating budget is $300,000 a year.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

That's what I was curious about. Do those private donors and those foundations make up part of your top picks—the major 100 charities—or your 33 CI-identified outstanding Canadian charities that stand out for their leadership?

5:15 p.m.

Managing Director, Charity Intelligence Canada

Kate Bahen

No, people like you, me—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

So anybody who donates to you is not one of these charities who are listed on your website as preferred picks.

5:15 p.m.

Managing Director, Charity Intelligence Canada

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I'm kind of curious. Frankly, I donate money, and I'm very interested in this, because I have to do my own due diligence, so I was curious about where your funding comes from and why these people would fund you.

What would be your normal donor?

5:15 p.m.

Managing Director, Charity Intelligence Canada

Kate Bahen

There is no such thing as a normal donor. We are funded by elderly people, we are funded by students, we are funded by people who believe in the work we do that—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Just on the basis that you would pick charities for other people and do due diligence on that.

5:15 p.m.

Managing Director, Charity Intelligence Canada

Kate Bahen

People want greater transparency. It's not that they actually want us to pick charities. We are completely independent and objective.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

That's exactly what I believe, too. I think Canadians do want greater transparency, as you mentioned, and that is exactly why we passed in this budget the ability for Canadians to understand where money is coming from and where money is going.

Frankly, what you mentioned, Mr. Blumberg, troubled me, in that you said there were negative repercussions related to our requirements, especially given that you yourself....

I thought that's what you mentioned. So the negative repercussions you answered in relation to Mr. Brison were not in relation to the transparency that we were asking for? What was that in relation to? The question was directly—

5:15 p.m.

Lawyer and Partner, Blumberg Segal LLP, CanadianCharityLaw.ca

Mark Blumberg

We shouldn't have a chill on people doing political activities within the charity sector, but I don't think the budget has anything in it that will actually impede charities' involvement in political...so I don't have any problems with those proposals.

I think the CRA's ability to suspend a charity if it doesn't file properly the T3010 is helpful, but it's not mainly on the political issue; it's mainly on other issues, like they don't say they have $10 million in fundraising costs—some charities—and they should.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

This is my last question, Mr. Chair.

So you would for sure suggest that we adopt more of the 990s that the U.S. requires and the T3010s that they require. I know they require a lot more from their charities and non-profits than we do in Canada. So you would suggest that we adopt more of that and more accountability.

5:15 p.m.

Lawyer and Partner, Blumberg Segal LLP, CanadianCharityLaw.ca

Mark Blumberg

Yes, I would suggest that we have more transparency, and if it's done even on a sliding scale, that could be fine as well. But there are lots of things that, if you look at the U.S. and the U.K., they ask charities that are very helpful that we should adopt in this country as well.