Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transfer.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenn Campbell  Director, International Policy and Analysis Division , Department of Finance
Gilles Moreau  Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety
Jonathan Roy  Senior Policy Analyst, Social Policy, Health, Justice, Culture, Department of Finance
Daniel MacDonald  Chief, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, CHT/CST and Northern Policy, Department of Finance
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
Darryl Hirsch  Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety
Nigel Harrison  Manager, Legislative and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Gillis  Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Lee  Director, Office of Legislative and Regulatory Modernization; Policy, Planning and International Affairs Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Samuel Godefroy  Director General, Food Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Alwyn Child  Director General, Program Development and Guidance Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Annette Nicholson  Secretary and General Counsel, International Development Research Centre (IDRC)
Lenore Duff  Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Dominique La Salle  Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Nathalie Martel  Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Bruno Rodrigue  Chief, Social policy, Income Security, Department of Finance
Annette Vermaeten  Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Eileen Boyd  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel, Privy Council Office
Neil Bouwer  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Lynn Tassé  Director, Canada Gazette, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Gerard Peets  Senior Director, Strategy and Planning Directorate, Department of Industry
Patricia Brady  Director, Investment, Insolvency, Competition and Corporate Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Andy Lalonde  Manager, Preclearance, Canada Border Services Agency, Department of Public Safety
Lynn Hemmings  Senior Chief, Payments, Payments and Pensions, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have one minute.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

—you rely on would be government-sponsored research versus private sector-sponsored, and how will this change that? I'm just looking for ballpark figures.

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

In ballpark figures, the fisheries science program at the department is in the order of $82 million at the moment. The amount of relief funding that we are putting into this package of projects, which used to be funded with fish but are now covered with relief funding, and which we would now hope to move off relief and onto fish, is in the order of $10 million. So that gives you the relative scale of where we are now.

It's difficult for me to answer the other part of your question, because I don't know what the demand is going to be from the industry and the agreement from the government will be to augment that in the future. We'll have to see.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

But there is a reduction in the public science investment?

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

No?

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

No. I don't believe so.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Could we have just a brief response, please?

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

Yes.

The value of the resource that would be used if this tool were available would be fully in addition to what our current investment in science and management is.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, thank you.

I have Mr. Jean.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I don't want to hog the time, Mr. Chair. I was just interested in hearing, if we could, about some of those opportunities that you suggested these changes would drive.

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

Generally speaking, we feel there is an opportunity to re-engage more fulsomely with the fishing industry in the discussion about collaborative work. The court ruling of 2006 has had the effect of dampening the amount that we have been able to do with the industry, because, quite frankly, it's been more difficult for the industry to fund its side of a collaborative project. Everything else being equal, I think if this tool were available, it would reopen the opportunity to have discussions with the industry, which is interested in doing joint projects with us.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Obviously, they're interested in doing that, because we all have the same goal, which is to make sure we have a sustainable fish industry that's going to continue to serve Canadians for generations. Do you think that's fair?

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Okay.

Those are my only questions.

Are there any other opportunities, just before I devolve my time?

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

It's difficult to be specific, because—

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I understand, but you feel the model that this legislation is pursuing is going to open up opportunities for the industry, and also open up opportunities generally, to make sure that we have a sustainable fish population?

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

Yes, and I believe it will—because of the industry engagement, as my colleague explained—provide it the opportunity to bring more detailed information about the resource that it can use in its business-planning and economic-planning cycles, as well as in conservation.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Excellent.

Thank you.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

Monsieur Mai, s'il vous plaît.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Even though I agree with Ms. Nash that this should go to the other subcommittee, just so we understand, since we're talking about this, there was a Court of Appeal decision, because the money from licences was to be used for financing purposes. Is that correct?

6:10 p.m.

Manager, Legislative and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Nigel Harrison

Yes.

In 2006, the Federal Court of Appeal, in the Larocque case, held that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans didn't have the authority to use fish for financing. Among other things, the court held that the minister, by deciding to pay a contracting party the proceeds of the sale of fish was utilizing a resource that didn't belong to him for funding Fisheries and Oceans undertakings. The court found that this was an action that the federal crown couldn't perform unless we made an amendment such as the one that's being proposed here today.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Who brought that to court? Who was against the minister's use of the licensing?

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

The individual who brought the case was a member of a snow crab fishing fleet in New Brunswick.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

So now are the fishers for or against using that money?