Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transfer.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenn Campbell  Director, International Policy and Analysis Division , Department of Finance
Gilles Moreau  Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety
Jonathan Roy  Senior Policy Analyst, Social Policy, Health, Justice, Culture, Department of Finance
Daniel MacDonald  Chief, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, CHT/CST and Northern Policy, Department of Finance
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
Darryl Hirsch  Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety
Nigel Harrison  Manager, Legislative and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Gillis  Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Lee  Director, Office of Legislative and Regulatory Modernization; Policy, Planning and International Affairs Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Samuel Godefroy  Director General, Food Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Alwyn Child  Director General, Program Development and Guidance Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Annette Nicholson  Secretary and General Counsel, International Development Research Centre (IDRC)
Lenore Duff  Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Dominique La Salle  Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Nathalie Martel  Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Bruno Rodrigue  Chief, Social policy, Income Security, Department of Finance
Annette Vermaeten  Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Eileen Boyd  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel, Privy Council Office
Neil Bouwer  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Lynn Tassé  Director, Canada Gazette, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Gerard Peets  Senior Director, Strategy and Planning Directorate, Department of Industry
Patricia Brady  Director, Investment, Insolvency, Competition and Corporate Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Andy Lalonde  Manager, Preclearance, Canada Border Services Agency, Department of Public Safety
Lynn Hemmings  Senior Chief, Payments, Payments and Pensions, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

5:40 p.m.

Darryl Hirsch Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety

Yes, that's correct.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Are there benefits to having former intelligence officers knowledgeable in the area provide this type of oversight? I realize you've said that in some ways it is not oversight. But are there advantages to having former intelligence officers from the security establishment in this role?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

John Davies

There could be advantages. It could also be advantageous to come from outside the security intelligence community—it could result in a different perspective. The important thing is to make sure the analysts who work in the secretariat have the right skills to do the job.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I've read that this change, abolishing the Inspector General, will save about $1 million a year.

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

John Davies

The target under the deficit reduction action plan for this mission is about $800,000.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Does the government plan to reallocate these savings to the budget of SIRC?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

John Davies

No, the budget for the Inspector General is part of the Public Safety budget. When you cost out the nine staff and the associated operating costs, it comes to more like $1 million, so there's a bit of a differential there, and we're exploring how to reallocate it within the Security Intelligence Review Committee. We're looking at that.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

So the money will be reallocated within SIRC.

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

So the intention is to reallocate within.

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Ms. Glover.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Make sure it's the differential. You said it was a reallocation of the differential. I just wanted to clarify that.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Mai.

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to have a clearer understanding of the inspector general's role. Here we see, in particular, that:

CSIS activities have complied with legislation and Ministerial Direction

That is one of the functions of the Inspector General?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

So who will now look at whether or not the obligations have been fulfilled?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

John Davies

The Security Intelligence Review Committee.

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Before that, was the SIRC also looking at this?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

John Davies

Yes, essentially.

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Were there cases where the report would differ in terms of what the Inspector General was saying versus what SIRC was saying?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

John Davies

I think SIRC's reviews might differ with, say, those of the Inspector General. They might look at other things, and they might be a bit more operationally focused. Usually, though, it's more of a duplication or an overlap—there's no substantive difference in the findings that we've observed.

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

The question for us has to do with accountability and transparency. We are taking out someone in the system whose role is to make sure that the activities comply with legislation.

You were talking about duplication. So basically, everything the Inspector General has done so far was useless? What was the original reason to have an Inspector General?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety

John Davies

I think it was in 1984 or 1985 that the CSIS Act was put in. Probably at the time it was to give independent eyes and ears for the minister, different from the external review body of SIRC. I think, though, what's going on here is no change to the proportion or amount of review that's going to be done. Two-thirds of the CSIS Act still deals with accountability and reporting and review. That proportion stays the same. It's one function that is done in many ways already by SIRC, but it's going to be done specifically in a different place.