Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transfer.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC
At the end of the day, we are losing someone who's independent and whose role is to oversee.
5:45 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
Again, the Inspector General is part of Public Safety. It's like another part, so the office is not really independent. It's part of the bureaucracy of Public Safety. The Security Intelligence Review Committee is truly independent—it's arm's length—so they will be given additional powers here.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
I have a couple of quick questions.
Thank you for being here today.
When the Inspector General was re-appointed in 2010, the minister said that her office helped to ensure that CSIS operated within the law and followed current policies. When did that cease to be important under her office? You're saying it's going to be done through SIRC, but the minister at the time said it was important that the Inspector General fulfill that function. What has changed since then?
5:45 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
I'm not sure much has changed. The key point here is that the function is what's important and that same function is going to continue. It's only going to be dealt with around the corner basically, in a different building downtown. The main thing that's changed since 2010 is the deepening financial crisis and the policy priority of going after the deficit. I think that's the main issue here.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
So if there were not austerity measures brought in by the government, this change would not be made to the Inspector General's office. The minister himself wouldn't be initiating this change.
5:45 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
I can't answer that clearly. I'm not sure what our advice would be with or without a deficit reduction action plan. As I said, I think there's strong policy merit either way. I think there was clear duplication going on in the system and there are efficiencies to be gained, which is a good policy to have under any fiscal situation.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
Yes.
Did the fact that the Inspector General has often been publicly critical of CSIS play a role in eliminating that position?
5:45 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
There is not currently a chair. I believe that's a Governor in Council appointment that's being worked on. It's not my area.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
So the position of Inspector General is being cut and that function will be replaced by a committee that doesn't have a key leader, the chairperson, as part of it right now.
5:45 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
As I said, that's being worked on now. The Inspector General herself actually retired at the end of last year.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
5:45 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
I'm not sure, but a few months.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Just so that I understand this, in practice the Inspector General was able to go out in public and talk about some of the issues that were wrong or problems with CSIS?
5:45 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
No. To be clear, the Inspector General position is an internal accountability mechanism for the Minister of Public Safety. Anything you've seen in the public from the Inspector General came out through an access to information request, a sort of redacted version on a website.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC
So you say someone will replace the equivalent of the Inspector General. In terms of the fiscal implications of this, with the elimination of the Inspector General can you tell us how much it will cost in additional resources for SIRC?
5:50 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
Yes, as I said before, the deficit reduction action targets are now at $800,000. That's what we're working to.
If you impute the cost of full-time equivalent positions at the Inspector General, in operating costs it comes out to about $1 million or so. We are looking to reallocate that differential to the Security Intelligence Review Committee. It's in that neighbourhood that we're looking. It depends upon the exact amount available and so on.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC
If you're saying that the target reduction is $800,000 and the positions were worth roughly $1 million, there hasn't been any plan yet on how much will be allocated to replace....
5:50 p.m.
Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
We're just working through that with our corporate services folks on how this is going to translate.
