Finance Committee on May 17th, 2012

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Correct. So it's a very generous formula that provides some predictability.

I want to share with you and get your comments on something that's happening in my riding. I have St. Boniface Hospital in my riding, and I'm very proud of some of the measures they've taken. They realize there's waste in the health care system and they're trying to address it. They have a program called Lean.

I went to observe what they're doing with this program called Lean. Things as basic as the nurses having to drag around the cuff and the thermometer on a cart from room to room was causing them a lot of delays. Time was spent looking for the cart to help patients and to do their jobs. So doing simple things like putting that equipment on a wall in every room makes it more efficient.

Hospitals across the country are actually looking to St. Boniface Hospital to learn how to do these very basic common-sense measures to increase efficiency, which essentially also saves money and reduces waste within the health care system. I mention that in my effort to also say that the provinces have a responsibility here as well to look for those inefficiencies and to move towards having a health care system that operates in an effective manner.

I know I can't ask you for your opinion on that, but have you heard of this program?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Just a brief response.

[Daniel MacDonald]

I had not heard of that program, no.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, thank you, Ms. Glover.

We go now to Ms. Nash, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I have a question about process, which you may or may not be able to answer.

When the government brought in this new formula, the provinces were surprised, and I'm wondering why they were left out of the consultations. It was imposed on them, as opposed to bringing them into the conversation. Do you have any background on why that was done?

[Daniel MacDonald]

I don't think I have any comment on that.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

This change of formula is different from the old formula that the federal government has used. How much money is it going to save the federal government throughout the period of the projections that you have calculated? Do you have any background on that?

[Daniel MacDonald]

First of all, with respect to savings over a period, I repeat that the legislation expired at the end of 2013-14, so what the measure has done is define what the growth of the transfer following 2013-14 will be. So the figures that have been set out are the total spending that will be put to the Canada health transfer.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Right, but my question is that if the formula had not been changed and had stayed the same, how much more would the government have spent on health care?

[Daniel MacDonald]

Given that this is dependent on what future GDP growth would be, I don't have figures of that nature.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Well, you must have some calculation of what this change would bring or surely the government wouldn't have changed it.

There was an existing formula, and the government has made a change to the formula, which will require a lower percentage of spending than what the government would have spent with the old formula. Have I got that right?

You're nodding...sort of.

[Daniel MacDonald]

The old formula was a 6% escalator through the period up to 2014.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

And this new formula is not. So if the new formula of the 6% escalator every year had been maintained, versus the new formula, what is the difference in that amount?

[Daniel MacDonald]

I don't have a figure for what the difference in the amount of various scenarios would be. I know that there have been various scenarios put out about what that amount might be or could be. That's not...as I said, what we have done is in this bill set out what the growth of the transfer will be after 2013-14.

In terms of the measure, the new formula, as I said, it's another parameter that's familiar from federal-provincial transfers in the three-year moving average of nominal GDP, which has been what is a reflection of the federal government's capacity to pay.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Can you provide this committee with background research that you may have conducted in order to determine what this formula would be and why the change of formula? There must have been some research work that was prepared to help the government make this change. Is that available? Can you make that available to this committee?

[Daniel MacDonald]

I'm not certain there's anything available that's not subject to cabinet confidence—

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Can you check that out and let us know?

[Daniel MacDonald]

—but I can take that under advisement.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Okay.

That's it.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. MacDonald, if you ever come up with the number that this would be projected to be, based on the formula itself and forecasting GDP, which in my mind would be, quite frankly, near impossible, I would really like to partner up in the stock exchange with you, because it would sound like you'd be able to project figures that are, quite frankly, contingent completely on the GDP growth.

I did want to clarify, I think, on what Ms. Glover had said earlier, which is that I think only one province, and that being the Province of Alberta, has estimated an actual increase in health care spending at about 7% or 7.2%. Out of all the provinces, it's the only one that's gone actually above and beyond the transfer of 6% increase.

Is that fair to say? Isn't Alberta the only one that's actually more than the federal government has promised?

[Daniel MacDonald]

Yes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

And is there in fact one province that, if I remember correctly from reading it some time ago, has actually projected a decline in spending?

[Daniel MacDonald]

I don't have a record of the decline figures here for 2012-13—