Finance Committee on May 28th, 2012

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I'll suspend for a few minutes to take a health break.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I call this meeting back to order, the 62nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance, going through Bill C-38. We are on part 4, division 40, the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy Act.

We have two officials from Environment Canada to give an overview of this section. Welcome to the committee.

[Lawrence Hanson, Director General, Strategic Policy Directorate, Department of the Environment]

My name is Lawrence Hanson. I'm the director general of strategic policy for Environment Canada. I'm joined by my colleague Maxime Lessard-Lachance.

The decision to dissolve the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy was a product of decision-making under the deficit reduction action plan and was signified as such in budget 2012. The elimination of the round table will result in annual savings of about $5.1 million starting in 2013. As the minister has indicated, the decision to dissolve the round table is predicated on a change in the environmental policy landscape since the round table was created 25 years ago. At that time there were few independent sources of advice on economic and sustainable development issues, and the round table filled the void. Since that time there's been a proliferation of environmental groups, think tanks, academia, etc., that can provide sophisticated analytics and advice on a range of environmental issues.

The provisions in the budget implementation act do a few different things. First, the existing National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy Act would be amended to allow the round table to begin to dispose of its assets and deal with its liability so that it can wind down its affairs during its final fiscal year of operation.

A second series of transitional measures relates to the actual activities of disposing those assets as need be, and at a period when the round table ceases to exist, any of its liabilities or surpluses would revert to the crown. At the time of coming into force, the appointments of the existing members of the round table would come to an end.

Finally, the other significant portion of the legislation relates to the actual dissolution itself. The National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy Act would be repealed and the round table dissolved at a date of coming into force to be determined by order in council at a later date.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, thank you very much for that overview, Mr. Hanson.

We'll have members' questions, with Ms. Nash starting.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you for being here and for your efforts in promoting environmental sustainability.

Can you tell us what the current projects are before the round table? What are the current activities?

[Lawrence Hanson]

There are, I believe, two remaining reports to come forward from the round table. The first has to do with a reference from the Minister of the Environment asking the round table to examine provincial and territorial approaches to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. The second is part of an ongoing series called climate prosperity that the round table is conducting related to the issues of a long-term path forward on reducing emissions for Canada. We understand that both of those reports are to be completed and submitted before the end of the round table's mandate.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

The mission statement of the round table states that environmental and economic matters cannot be considered in isolation from each other and that the mission of the round table is to bring the environment and the economy together. The government claims to be in favour of this concept, so what is the rationale for closing the round table?

[Lawrence Hanson]

As the minister has indicated, it has always welcomed the historic work of the round table on a wide variety of issues. The reality is that the exact kind of analysis of trying to bring together sustainable development—i.e., the marriage of meeting economic and environmental goals—is conducted by a lot of other organizations. So this reality, being in a time when there is an effort sought to reduce expenditures, it was felt that it was logical to make a cut in an instance where the kind of work being done would be done by others and not draw on public resources.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

So you don't think it's important for the government to show leadership in this area of how interwoven the notions of environmental sustainability and strong economic growth are?

[Lawrence Hanson]

The department continues to do significant analysis and work on a wide variety of environmental issues and continues to promote the concept of sustainable development under the Federal Sustainable Development Act, under the federal sustainable development strategies, etc., and those efforts within Environment Canada continue.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

You refer to some other organizations that are doing this work, and in essence here, if I understand you correctly, you're saying the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy is a duplication of the work that other groups are doing.

Can you name those groups and what kind of work they're conducting that you see as a duplication?

[Lawrence Hanson]

Obviously, different groups are focusing on different issues. If I were to look, for example, at the issue of climate change and energy, I think the Pembina Institute would be an example of that. The David Suzuki Foundation has done work, and the International Institute for Sustainable Development. If you wanted to look at nature and conservation issues, you would probably consider the Green Budget Coalition, which regularly does analytics and makes representations on budget recommendations. It would include things like the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, Nature Canada, Environmental Defence Canada, etc. There are a number of organizations that have looked at water issues. The Walter and Duncan Gordon Foundation is one.

Over and above those, you would look at things like the C.D. Howe Institute—

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I have just a few seconds left.

Could you tell me what has been the reaction of these organizations to the cancellation and abandoning of the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy? How have these organizations reacted to that proposal?

[Lawrence Hanson]

I am not personally aware of comments made by these other organizations. That's not to say they haven't made such comments; I'm just not personally aware of public statements they have made on them. I'm sure that if there were some, we could track them down.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

Mr. Hoback, please.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for being here.

I have a couple of simple questions. It's a round table, and when I think of round tables, I think of something that gets together and talks about policy issues. How did they come to have assets?

[Lawrence Hanson]

A lot of their assets are going to be very basic things. Frankly, they're not going to have a lot of significant assets. It's really just going to be classic things that they have to run the organization, such as computers, technology, photocopiers, their rental agreements on office space. They would obviously have a very limited series of physical assets. My understanding is that just because they are being dissolved, there has to be a legal means of dealing with the limited assets they have.

They're supported by a secretariat. The round table members are appointed by order in council. They are supported by a secretariat of about 30 individuals. A lot of the assets associated with the round table would be the physical structure that surrounds the secretariat for the round table.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

As far as other organizations are concerned, for example, the University of Saskatchewan College of Agriculture and Bioresources is doing a lot of work on water and water issues. Again, you look at the new environment we're in with technologies such as iPhones, BlackBerrys, computers, and the Internet. The gathering of data online, and the gathering of data from different universities, which have now taken extreme interest in the environment, is substantial. Would you not agree?

[Lawrence Hanson]

Yes, I think it is. What we've seen in the environmental community has replicated itself across universities. This is obviously going to be multidisciplinary in terms of environmental issues and environmental economics, and the bridge between the two.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

Mr. Brison, please.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much for being with us today.

You mentioned in answer to Ms. Nash's question, the Pembina Institute, the Sierra Club, the David Suzuki Foundation, and the Green Budget Coalition. You said the principal reason the government is disbanding the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy is that these groups are now available to provide advice to the government. Is that right? Am I understanding that correctly?

[Lawrence Hanson]

Yes, certainly there are more sources of advice and analysis on our environment now than there was at the time the round table was created.