Evidence of meeting #62 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Actually, I haven't written much about the money against the Keystone campaign, but there is. I could mention $5 million right off the bat from the Rockefellers, from the Oak Foundation, to 350.org and One Sky, which are the groups that Bill McKibben is involved with.
But I want to just correct one thing. I have never said that American money is going specifically to oppose Enbridge.
8:35 p.m.
As an Individual
I am convinced that if any of the first nations there were in favour of this pipeline, they wouldn't be getting a penny of this American money. On the one hand, we can't say that they're deliberately funding the opposition of the pipeline, but if these groups were in favour of it, I don't think they'd be on the gravy train.
8:35 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
They wouldn't be on the payroll.
Mr. Blumberg, you spoke before to this committee, and you were very positive about some of the things we brought forward. Do you think, with these new laws that are coming forward in relation to transparency and accountability for non-profit sector charities, that we are going to be even, as far as transparency goes, with what's taking place in the United States as far as payments to directors, payments to employees, and payments to the top ten earners are concerned? Are we going to be on the same line as they are in the United States as far as their obligation to report?
8:35 p.m.
Lawyer and Partner, Blumberg Segal LLP
The U.S. charities file Form 990, which has a lot more information on it than we provide in the T-3010. One useful thing that has come out of this sort of comparison backwards and forwards is that a lot of the information that's come out has come from the U.S. Form 990s. I think we should have more robust information.
Unfortunately, the one regret I have is that these changes will take CRA two years to implement and will cost millions of dollars, just for the transparency stuff. I don't think, in the end, it's going to bring out a lot more than what Ms. Krause has herself brought out. I think it would be better to make the T-3010 more expansive, in my opinion. Ask more questions on things like impact, the number of volunteers the charity has, and things relating to governance, which are really important, and other things that are important. In a way, it's a little bit of a missed opportunity.
I would also point out that charities have to do a lot of disclosure. Maybe I want more, but there is a lot of disclosure. Non-profits in Canada don't make any disclosures. We don't even know what their names are, and CRA can't disclose that. I would say that it would be good not just to compare ourselves to the Americans but to also look at the difference between non-profits and registered charities.
8:35 p.m.
Conservative
8:35 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you.
The fact that we have all eight of you here at the same time in a way represents what is wrong with Bill C-38 and the way we are going about it now. We have here three people who specialize in charities, one person from agriculture, one person from mining, one person who promotes the oil sands, someone who has been talking about the tax consequences, and someone who comes from independent business, all in a single group.
I am going to try to focus my questions, but five minutes does go by fairly quickly.
My first question is for Mr. Blumberg, Ms. Krause and Mr. Lauzière, in particular.
With the information you have, do you have enough evidence to show that groups in Canada, charities, have laundered money, as a Conservative minister has said?
I am asking all three of you. Go ahead, Mr. Lauzière.
8:35 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Imagine Canada
Mr. Kent made that allegation. We wrote to the minister to ask him whether he was aware of the situation. You have to understand that in the charitable sector, if certain practices are occurring when they should not, they absolutely have to be pointed out. The people involved in wrongdoing have to be reported to the authorities, be it the RCMP or the Canada Revenue Agency. We have no information about this at all.
As we said earlier, the Canada Revenue Agency does its job well. They have the tools they need to be able to collar the wrongdoers. We were certainly not made aware of this kind of situation, and we are still waiting for a little more information about this. In our opinion, there is no money laundering occurring, at least not to our knowledge.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you.
If you would answer quickly, Ms. Krause.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Yes.
I'll say two things quickly.
First, I wrote a piece in the Financial Post about two weeks ago called “Damage control” in which I described how 15 foundations that have been funding environmental groups have rewritten their grants and have taken out the sentences that refer to political activity.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Ms. Krause, I really do not have a lot of time. I just wanted you to give me a yes or no.
8:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I could give you one example, but I wouldn't call it money laundering. I'm not an expert in the field.
But I can give you examples of how the purpose of the money changes as the money goes from one place to the next, and the origin and the ends and the objectives are obscured.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I will come back to you, but for the moment I am going to interpret your answer as though you had said you did not know.
What about you, Mr. Blumberg?
8:40 p.m.
Lawyer and Partner, Blumberg Segal LLP
If the question is about money laundering, I'm concerned about money laundering and terrorism. But I have no reason to believe that any of these activities are money laundering. I understand that money laundering is a criminal offence, and I think people should be careful before they say that this is money laundering. Those would be my questions.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Ms. Krause, I would like to go back to your definition.
You seem to have a very strange definition of what political activity can be. You're saying basically that you don't mind money coming from a U.S. foundation, as long as it's funding both sides of the story for an equitable debate.
What about, say, small “c” or libertarian foundations in the U.S. funding think tanks in Canada? Are you saying, by this logic, that they should be funding as many conservative think tanks as progressive think tanks? They shouldn't be funding conservative think tanks if they're not funding progressive think tanks. That seems to be the way you're defining the activities of such foundations.
8:40 p.m.
As an Individual
That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say two things. One, that the money should be out in the open if it's coming from billion dollar foundations or hedge-fund billionaires, so there should be transparency.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I'm not saying anything against transparency. I'm just talking about your argument that they're funding one part of the story but not the other part of the story, in B.C. for example.
8:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Right, so they should say simply, “No, we're only funding opposition”. They shouldn't say we want all voices to be heard, when in fact that's not at all what they're doing. It's the inconsistency between what they're saying and what they're doing that concerns me.
The other concern I have, having worked overseas for 10 years, is that charity is really important. I think it should go to the countries that need it. Right now, Canada's on track over the next 10 years to get half a billion from American philanthropic foundations. I don't think that money should come to Canada.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I'll have to go to my next question, then. Very quickly once again, you seem to be saying—and Mr. Jean also implies, with the Rockefeller story—that commercial interests are behind all this movement of money towards Canadian foundations.
8:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I've tried to say this before. I think there's broad economic interest. I have never seen any evidence of a specific commercial interest.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
But you didn't deny what Mr. Jean was saying—
