Evidence of meeting #65 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was spectrum.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mirko Bibic  Executive Vice-President, Chief Legal and Regulatory Officer, BCE Inc. and Bell Canada
David Coles  President, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Gary Wong  Director, Legal Affairs, Data and Audio-Visual Enterprises Wireless Inc., Mobilicity
Bruce Kirby  Vice-President, Strategy and Business Development, Public Mobile
Simon Lockie  Chief Regulatory Officer, Wind Mobile
Len Zedel  Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Bob Kingston  National President, Agriculture Union
Philippe Bergevin  Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
David Skinner  President, Consumer Health Products Canada
Matthew Holmes  Executive Director, Canada Organic Trade Association
Richard Wright  Manager, Exploration, Oil and Gas, Nalcor Energy
Richard Steiner  Professor, University of Alaska, Conservation and Sustainability Consultant, Oasis Earth Project, As an Individual
Erin Weir  Economist, United Steelworkers

9:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Canada Organic Trade Association

Matthew Holmes

Thank you for the opportunity.

As I said in my remarks, we don't have a position against third-party delivery per se, but I think there's quite a strong onus in the regulatory support structure that comes after this act, to actually put in place roles, responsibilities, oversight, enforcement, all of the actors involved, what form of accreditation or ISO they must meet in order to play that role, and specifically what they're there to do. I think Mr. Kingston's points of maintenance and the funding to maintain the standards and the oversight system, and the oversight and enforcement efficacy of that, are very essential in this.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Kingston, I'd like to go back to you for a second. Are you aware of any analysis that was done in advance of these decisions?

9:05 p.m.

National President, Agriculture Union

Bob Kingston

I'm aware that none was done. What made it difficult is that, like many departments, most of the senior executives at CFIA are not from that industry. When they had to make these decisions, there was a process in place under which they couldn't talk to anybody about it. So most of the cuts that are being put in place for financial reasons—I can understand that. The cuts that were planned were done in an information vacuum. We've asked for a meeting with the minister to talk about it. We do have a meeting planned with the president of CFIA to explain where some of the logical flaws are. For example, in the areas of plant health and animal health, they have deregulated a lot of pests and said they're now established, so now they're getting rid of all the people who used to look after—

9:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, Mr. Marston—

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I have a very short question: do you think it's putting Canadians at risk?

9:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Marston, we are over time.

9:05 p.m.

National President, Agriculture Union

Bob Kingston

Yes, it's absolutely putting Canadians at risk.

9:05 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

9:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

9:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everybody, for appearing and staying so long.

Mr. Kingston, I have a question. I'm going to ask for an answer, and I'll ask the chair if it's appropriate or if I'm following procedure if I do this.

In Ontario, and I think it would probably be safe to say in Canada, we have a small abattoir crisis. The little guys tell me they can no longer compete. There is so much red tape. There are so many regulations they have to follow.

I'm not going to sit here and suggest that we don't have safe...but the ironic thing is that the problems seem to crop up—and I think Maple Leaf is an example of that—in the larger abattoirs that can handle all the red tape. They have armies of people to help them with that, so they can do what's required. The little guy simply finally throws his hands up.

I guess the question I want to ask—and I have to ask it through the chair, if it's appropriate. We are actually asking you about the budget. We are a government. We are always looking for solutions. In your position, do you have some solutions for this government? I understand that it's not only federal; there's provincial jurisdiction there as well.

Chair, is it appropriate to ask for that, so we can have some—

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Yes, that's appropriate.

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

That's all I'm going to ask you, to give this government some direction to save the small abattoir. What can we do as a government? Because it really is serious.

As I said, in my riding alone I can think of about three right off the top of my head, and there are probably more that have closed.

Maybe you could do that for me.

If I could shift, maybe I'll go to Mr. Steiner and to Mr. Zedel.

We're learning a lot about the oceans. I don't think there's a person in this world who watches our nature programs, sees those things, and isn't shocked by some of the abuses that we've inflicted on the animals in the ocean.

In a perfect world, would you allow seismic testing?

That question is for both of you. I'll let Mr. Zedel start because he's looking at me, and then we'll switch over to Mr. Steiner.

9:10 p.m.

Prof. Len Zedel

Thank you. I have this luxury of being present in the room.

We all burn gas these days, many of us eat fish, some of us go whale watching, so there has to be some kind of balance and compromise, in my mind. I think we're stuck with offshore oil, and that means we're stuck with seismic surveys.

In a perfect world, I'd allow them. But I'd make sure they were regulated and constrained to operate at times of minimum impact, to operate in manners that caused minimum impact.

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Steiner, you're up.

9:10 p.m.

Prof. Richard Steiner

I would say, as a biologist, that in a perfect world we would not allow seismic surveys in offshore marine ecosystems simply because these are extremely loud sound sources, 230 to 250 decibels, which are in the order of magnitude louder than being a metre away from a 747 engine on takeoff, if you can imagine.

These are extremely loud. They propagate for hundreds of kilometres. We know it has behavioural, physiological, and injurious effects on cetaceans, pinnipeds, birds, fish, etc. So in a perfect world we wouldn't. But I think my colleague, Professor Zedel, framed it correctly. This is not a perfect world. This is a real world, and that's the world the Canadian Parliament and government, and the U.S. government, have to deal with.

We use oil and gas. The question is, as consumers...the consumer is starting to ask to produce this product, explore for it, transport it, refine it, and use it in the most responsible way possible. That means there are some areas that should be left off limits, and the highest, best available technology standards should be applied to where and how we do this. We're not there, quite frankly, either in the United States or Canada.

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

I've got a suggestion to make, as I also suggested to Mr. Kingston, and I hope we're doing that. I served on the fisheries committee for a small period time. We really need to have that collective agreement that you're talking about between our country and yours.

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Mr. Caron, the floor is yours.

9:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

It's hard for me to leave the witch hunt that we tended to let go unanswered.

Mr. Weir, you're an economist, right?

9:10 p.m.

Economist, United Steelworkers

Erin Weir

I am, yes.

9:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

What's your degree and where did you get it?

9:10 p.m.

Economist, United Steelworkers

Erin Weir

I hold a bachelor of arts from the University of Regina, a master of arts from the University of Calgary, and a master of public administration from Queen's University.

9:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you very much.

How long have you been working as an economist?

9:10 p.m.

Economist, United Steelworkers

Erin Weir

I suppose I started working as an economist in 2005, after I graduated from Queen's.

9:10 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bergevin, are you also an economist?

9:10 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute

Philippe Bergevin

I have a master's degree in economics from the HEC in Montreal. I have been a practising economist for about 10 years.