Check the Hansard. You said what he was saying was not true.
Evidence of meeting #70 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was clauses.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #70 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was clauses.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
6:40 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
6:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
All right, this is not a point of order.
Mr. Martin, whether he's correct or not, is entitled to say “that's not true”. It's a matter of debate; it's not a point of order.
Mr. Martin, do you want Mr. Giles to finish his answer to you?
6:40 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Sure, if he's not finished, but I would like to ask for one further clarification.
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Mr. Giles, do you want to finish your answer? Then Mr. Martin will pose a supplementary question.
6:45 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I think I finished my answer.
6:45 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Believe me, I wasn't trying to be rude by saying I didn't think what you were saying was accurate. Maybe I could qualify by saying I don't think that's correct.
Just to connect the dots once again, or please help me connect the dots, in the absence of the federal Fair Wages and Hours of Labour Act, you can offer to pay a carpenter or a plumber or a pipefitter a wage as low as the provincial minimum wage. You can't offer a job at lower than that, but you could offer the provincial minimum wage.
In order to get temporary foreign workers, you have to demonstrate by way of posting an advertisement that there are no available Canadians to do the job. Therefore, a contractor could put an ad in the paper for carpenters wanted, $10 per hour--because that's the minimum wage in Manitoba--and no carpenters would apply, believe me, especially at 48 hours a week at straight time. So in ten days you could get temporary foreign workers in and pay them 15% below the prevailing wage of $10 per hour. That's another new change that was just made.
I don't think it's exaggerating to have the fear in my industry that it's going to drag down the wage schedule of the union and the non-union sector, and I just put it to you and ask what the rationale was on the part of the government to drive down the wages of Canadian workers. I always thought that a sign of a healthy economy was a middle class that was consuming. A well-paid, consuming middle class is a sign of a healthy economy.
I was in Washington recently and I saw a bumper sticker that said “At least the war on the middle class is going well”.
6:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
6:45 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Well, that seems to be what's going on here. There's a war on the middle class. What do you have against fair wages? What government could possibly conceive of eliminating a bill that was called the fair wages act?
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Mr. Giles, I know you can't address the political aspects, but could you address the other aspects of that question?
6:45 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
As to the first part of your question, the very first part, I can confirm that you're right: in the absence of the Fair Wages and Hours of Labour Act, then a contractor bidding on a federal government contract would be obliged to meet whatever the provincial regulations happen to be, whether they're general minimum wage or specific to the construction industry.
As to the mechanics of seeking temporary foreign workers, again, I'm not an expert on that area, so I can't answer that part of your question.
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
This discussion is getting a little tedious. It would be nice if the members opposite would just, at the very minimum.... I can understand they don't want to read the entire bill, but at a bare minimum they should have at least read the legislative summary. A lot of their questions would have been answered in very clear and candid language.
I want to preface my comments by saying that, clearly, the Fair Wages and Hours of Labour Act is not working. If Mr. Martin is correct and his talk of labour pimps and these workers who go around building airports on a weekly basis is true, then clearly the current legislative regime is not working and must be replaced.
Clearly this act, Mr. Giles, serves no useful purpose at the current time. It doesn't really play a significant role in protecting workers. The cost and the administrative burden of the legislation is really difficult to justify. Could you just comment on that for me, please?
6:45 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I would have to agree with you there.
Just by way of information, the federal contracts for non-residential construction used to be over 10% of the whole market many years ago. They have now dropped to around 2%. So clearly the act has become less relevant over the years.
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Yes.
You indicated before that the construction industry falls under provincial jurisdiction.
6:50 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Yes, it does.
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
6:50 p.m.
Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I'm sorry, what wouldn't apply?
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
What Mr. Martin was talking about before, in terms of construction, and his previous employ as, I don't know, a union boss or...?
