Evidence of meeting #70 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was clauses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gordon Boissonneault  Senior Advisor, Economic Analysis and Forecasting Division, Demand and Labour Analysis, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Sue Foster  Acting Director General, Policy, Appeals and Quality, Service Canada
Margaret Strysio  Director, Strategic Planning and Reporting, Parks Canada Agency
Stephen Bolton  Director, Border Law Enforcement Strategies Division, Public Safety Canada
Michael Zigayer  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Garry Jay  Chief Superintendent, Acting Director General, HR Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Jeff Hutcheson  Director, HQ Programs and Financial Advisory Services, Coporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Darryl Hirsch  Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety
Ian Wright  Executive Advisor, Financial Markets Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Nigel Harrison  Manager, Legislative and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Lee  Director, Office of Legislative and Regulatory Modernization, Policy, Planning and International Affairs Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Anthony Giles  Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Bruno Rodrigue  Chief, Income Security, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Gerard Peets  Senior Director, Strategy and Planning Directorate, Department of Industry
Suzanne Brisebois  Director General, Policy and Operations, Parole Board of Canada, Public Safety Canada
Louise Laflamme  Chief, Marine Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Department of Transport
Judith Buchanan  Acting Senior Manager, Labour Standards Operations, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada
Mark Hodgson  Senior Policy Analyst, Labour Markets, Employment and Learning, Department of Finance
Stephen Johnson  Director General, Evaluation Directorate, Strategic Policy and Research Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
James McNamee  Deputy Director, Horizontal Immigration Policy Division, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Graham Barr  Director General, Transition Planning and Coordination, Shared Services Canada

9:40 p.m.

An hon. member

The interpreters are...[Inaudible—Editor]

9:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Yes, the interpreters are amazing.

I'll suspend for a few minutes.

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We left off at division 44.

I will therefore ask whether clauses 620 to 753 carry....

Just kidding, just kidding.

9:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I was just seeing if anybody was....

We are at division 44, which is customs tariff, clauses 620 to 625.

(Clauses 620 to 625 inclusive agreed to on division)

We are now at division 45, the Canada Marine Act, clause 626.

(Clause 626 agreed to)

We are at the First Nations Land Management Act, clauses 627 to 652, in division 46.

We have Liberal amendment 7 on clause 629.

We can have discussion—or do you want to move it, Mr. Brison?

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I move Liberal amendment 7. Again, it's important to—

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Brison, but you can speak to it generally first.

I'll deal with clauses 627 and 628. Then I'll deal with clause 629 and you can formally move your amendment.

But you can speak to the division generally now.

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Sorry, Chair, I can't hear you.

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I'll get you to speak generally to the division, and then when we get to clause 629 you can move it formally.

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Yes.

I think it's important to recognize that we have not heard a single witness at this committee from a first nations community. We had asked to hear from first nations groups, but they weren't available on such short notice. I believe we have a duty to consult with them, because they're of course very seriously impacted by some of these decisions.

I will move the amendment now, or...?

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Let me deal first with clauses 627 and 628.

(Clauses 627 and 628 agreed to)

That was unanimous.

(On clause 629)

Mr. Brison, you can now move Liberal 7.

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I so move, Mr. Chair.

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

That amendment is admissible.

(Amendment negatived)

That is defeated: I count five in favour and six opposed.

(Clause 629 agreed to)

(Clauses 630 to 652 inclusive agreed to)

Thank you.

We'll go to division 47, which has one clause only, clause 653.

(Clause 653 agreed to)

We will go to division 48, which has two clauses dealing with the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority Act.

(Clauses 654 and 655 agreed to on division)

We'll deal with division 49, clauses 656 to 681, the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act.

I have Monsieur Mai on this issue.

9:55 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Division 49 amends the act and repeals provisions related to the First Nations Statistical Institute. It also authorizes the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to close out the institute's affairs.

The institute provides statistical information on first nations. Given the budget cuts at Statistics Canada, there is a problem when it comes to information. You need only think of the long-form census. In this case, there is no guarantee that the information affecting first nations communities will be collected, information that is crucial in order to have policies that promote first nations development. This is yet another example of the government's attack on science; that ties in to our motion today. The government does not believe in science-based information. For that reason, we are going to vote against this division.

9:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Mai.

Ms. Glover, please.

9:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's just absolute nonsense, and I'm quite surprised, given that it's aboriginal groups who actually support the government's move in this direction. In fact, the AFN supports this move. Chief Manny Jules supports this move.

The fact remains that this statistical management operation has not been operational and hasn't delivered any significant progress in supporting data or statistical needs of first nations at all. In fact, Stats Canada and the First Nations Information Governance Centre are doing the work that really could have been done otherwise by this organization.

Consultations have been held. We're moving forward. This is a good measure, not only because first nations support it and want to see this happen, but because it is a cost saving measure for an agency that really was not operational. The government will be proud to vote in favour of this very important section.

9:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

(Clauses 656 to 681 inclusive agreed to on division)

Thank you.

We'll therefore move to division 50. There are three clauses there on the Canadian Forces Members and Veterans Re-establishment and Compensation Act.

(Clauses 682 to 684 inclusive agreed to)

Division 51. We have amendments to the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada Act and repeal of the Department of Social Development Act.

I have Mr. Marston and Mr. Brison.

9:55 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to begin by saying we're against this. We're surprised. The clause would eliminate the National Council of Welfare. We're deeply concerned about the government's dismissal of organizations that seem to provide the evidence base, in this case, for social policy.

We've looked with concern at environmental areas, where the government seems to struggle with evidence-based offerings from various scientists. They seem to struggle in other areas where evidence-based groups have supplied verifiable studies and verifiable information.

Ms. Glover will recognize this, that the modus operandi of the government, or at least what's suggested, is that they struggle—there's the long form census—with evidence that's provided by various levels of the scientific community.

We have a situation, and I think it's acknowledged around the world but it is in fact in Canada too, that income inequity is on the rise. I think the phenomena we've seen in the last 10 months to a year, the occupation groups in the U.S. and in Canada, represent the communities' sense of it. Whether they're right or wrong, we can argue and we can debate that, but there's a very real situation happening, and we need to understand for better or for worse why it's happening.

In Hamilton there's an organization called the Social Planning & Research Council of Hamilton. Locally, for years, we've depended on reports from that particular group. For example, in my community of 500,000 people, there are over 120,000 who live in poverty. The reason I talk about that relative to this is because that's the evidence-based material that we rely on in our community as we plan going forward.

So to see the elimination of the National Council of Welfare taking place is quite disturbing.

I'll cut it short there.

10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

I have Mr. Brison, Ms. Nash, and Mr. Jean.

10 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Chair, this follows the trend of this government with KAIROS, Rights and Democracy, the national council for the environment and the economy, and now the national round table on welfare—defunding evidence-based voices that from time to time present positions with which the government disagrees. The reality is that if you look at the budgets of these organizations and compare them with the amount of money the government spends on its propaganda machine in advertising, an unprecedented amount—in fact the government has spent over $500 million on government advertising—you'll see that the priority for the government is not to encourage and listen to evidence-based policy but to promote an ideological agenda.

Again, they're bound and determined to go in this direction. This is another example at a time when a lot of Canadians are struggling, at a time when there's been a real gap between have and have not people in Canada, and at a time when Canadians are struggling under record amounts of debt. Low-income Canadians are really struggling with the growth in the cost of living. The idea of disbanding and defunding the National Council of Welfare seems almost inconceivable for the government to do. We are strongly opposed to eliminating the National Council of Welfare, which did very good work, was non-partisan, and was independent in its analysis.

10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

Ms. Nash, and then Mr. Jean.

10 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are a disturbing number of cuts that this government is making to scientific and research organizations. The National Council of Welfare is of course just one. In this budget there are cuts to Library and Archives Canada funding, which is very, very significant: about 20% of the workforce will be eliminated, very seriously damaging our ability to keep libraries and archival material. We talk about the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. We see big cuts to Statistics Canada. We talked about EI a few minutes ago. In fact we're not even going to be able to get access to some of the data from EI. We're seeing the elimination of the Experimental Lakes Area in Ontario.

It's part of a disturbing trend. In some cases, I think maybe it is that bodies are producing information and reports that the government doesn't want to hear. In other cases, I'm wondering if they just don't appreciate the value of some of these institutions.

The National Council of Welfare was created in 1962 to provide research and information on poverty in Canada. It is the only source of pan-Canadian information on welfare incomes, providing a valuable tool to understanding and comparing welfare across provinces and jurisdictions. It also provides unique research into aspects of poverty, including first nations, Inuit, and Métis poverty, the cornerstones of successful anti-poverty strategies, and most recently the cost of solving poverty compared to the cost of failing to take action. We hear a lot nowadays about the social determinants of health and the impact that inequality has on health outcomes, not just for those at the bottom of the income scale but for all, and the reduced social outcomes that inequality creates. The National Council of Welfare was the only body in Canada that had the mandate to advise the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development on poverty.

One of the major concerns Canadians have nowadays is the growing inequality in Canada, or the growing rates of poverty. We have seen with the Occupy movement young people concerned about growing inequality but also concerned about their diminished possibilities, with the difficulty getting a toehold in the workforce, with double the rate of unemployment for youth, and with the skyrocketing cost of post-secondary education. We spoke earlier about the erosion of OAS and the intergenerational divide that exacerbates.

The National Council of Welfare is more necessary now than ever. It is an important body—the only body that advises the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development on poverty. Something Canada doesn't have that some provinces have and some countries have is a poverty reduction or poverty elimination strategy. For people who grew up in Canada, they are seeing the cohesiveness of a society that is more or less equal—

10:05 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Point of order.

10:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Ms. Glover.

10:05 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

I am just looking for relevance, sir. It has gone on for quite a while, and it is not really relevant to the division. I am happy to hear how it is relevant.