Evidence of meeting #24 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was young.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pedro Antunes  Executive Director and Deputy Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada
Armine Yalnizyan  Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Tammy Schirle  Associate Professor, Department of Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual
Finn Poschmann  Vice-President, Research, C.D. Howe Institute
Victoria Lennox  Chief Executive Officer, Startup Canada

4:50 p.m.

Associate Professor, Department of Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual

Dr. Tammy Schirle

So very briefly, obviously going to school and not doing drugs is good for your job. That should always be known. The wages generally have been increasing for youth. We have consistent data since 1997 on that looking at median wages, and the wages of high school students are included in that, more so for the resource-rich provinces than others. Everywhere else you need to get a post-secondary degree.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

We'll go to M. Dubé.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to take this opportunity to say that, even if the level of student debt were to decrease, I don't think the government would have amended legislation to help debt-ridden students, but that's another story.

We're talking a lot about training, work terms and apprenticeships, all of which are key. But I'd like to pick up on my initial line of questioning around the long-term impact. Let's look at another quote from that same TD Economics study:

Unemployment immediately post-graduation erodes a graduate’s skills and competitive edge.

Combine that with the resulting impact on their income levels and it's clear that, even if young people have the training, it's worthless without any real policies to help them find jobs.

Is that a legitimate concern, in your view? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on that.

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director and Deputy Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Pedro Antunes

Actually, it's a waste. I recall driving in my car a few months ago and hearing that Ontario had a surplus of 40,000 teachers. How is that possible, when we know very clearly where the demographic demand for education lies? It's apparent from the figures. It's similar to the phenomenon of baby boomers leaving the workforce. With the echo boom generation, we had all these students graduating.

Again, I come back to planning and information, in other words, what we discussed regarding labour market information. Therein lies the key to preventing this kind of waste of education resources, for students and so forth.

4:55 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Armine Yalnizyan

Thank you for your question, M. Dubé.

I think we have been talking a lot about, as I mentioned in my presentation, the supply side of it, even rectifying market failures in terms of information. Then we've been talking about what people can do to make themselves more employable. All of this is important.

The other side of it, however, is that we have slow growth in the market and it is a buyer's market. What that means for young people who are coming out with their degrees, whatever the subject, is that, if there's competition for that position and they are either unemployed in their field or underemployed, they are more prone to taking unpaid internships, if that gives them something that looks like it's a relevant skill there. Otherwise, they actually do languish, and that is the scarring effect. They'll take any job because they have debt.

Then people look at their resumé. Now there are some employers that will say, “Aren't you plucky, you took any job.” Other employers will look at them and say, “Why didn't you get a job in the field that you were trained in? I'm not going to pick you. I'm going to pick the brand-new model that comes right behind you.”

This is how we get lost generations where you get people who have been working, they're working but they're underemployed for three years, four years, five years. They're not doing what they were trained in. They're never going to get picked for what they were going to do. The employer is going to go for somebody who is less jaded and has brand new skills. This is a huge problem. That's the gaspillage that we have to worry about.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Absolutely, it affects every community. These people will buy homes and start families. If entrepreneurs start businesses, they will need customers who can afford to buy their products.

Coming back to you, Professor Schirle, I believe you mentioned tax credits. We know that, when you get down to it, the web of measures is quite complex. I'm also the sports critic for the official opposition, and it's clear that tax credits for sports don't do much for many people. Do we have a similar problem on our hands as far as policies for young people go? There are all kinds of tax credits that look good on paper but do little in terms of really helping, because of all the options and complexity involved.

4:55 p.m.

Associate Professor, Department of Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual

Dr. Tammy Schirle

I think that in many cases we can find hard goals. Rather than creating several programs to achieve that goal, we can have one program that is easy for everyone to understand.

In terms of wasted programs, I think the Canada learning bond is an excellent example to learn from. This is an RESP contribution made by the government to children in low-income families. Only 15% of children who are eligible are actually receiving that bond. It is costless; all the parents have to do is open an account, and they aren't getting it. That's a great example.

The various tax credits don't really change behaviour. I get a tax credit for my child's pass at the Y. It doesn't change anything; that has been shown in the data as well.

I think there is a huge case here for just simplifying the system so that everyone knows exactly what the goal is and how to get there.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

I'd like to hear maybe a one-word answer from folks. The sense I'm getting from this meeting today is that it's nice to have all of these policies, but there should be policies more focused specifically on youth. It seems that youth have to benefit from these larger programs.

In a yes or no answer, would that be an accurate assessment?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

There remains about five seconds.

I'm assuming everybody agrees.

4:55 p.m.

A voice

Yes, or no.

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Poschmann, did you say no?

4:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Research, C.D. Howe Institute

Finn Poschmann

Yes, I did. You have to tune policy to the identity—the issue that you've identified. You have to be clear about the issue.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thanks.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

I'm going to take the next round.

I want to start with Startup Canada and I want to highlight that your first national meeting will be in Edmonton in September. I want to highlight this. It's a bit of a plug for the capital city of Alberta.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Is that back east somewhere?

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Can you tell me, do you work with Junior Achievement? Do you coordinate your efforts with that organization?

5 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Startup Canada

Victoria Lennox

Absolutely.

Mentors in our community are the mentors for Junior Achievement, so we engage the junior achievers in our community programs, and vice versa. They come into the accelerators and incubators, and then the accelerators and incubators and mentors go into the schools.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay. I'm heartened to hear that, because it's an excellent organization, at least from what I've seen locally.

My second question is for Ms. Yalnizyan, with respect to your first recommendation, to make sure that companies seeking LMOs and foreign work exchange students post those opportunities on the national jobs board.

Companies have to do advertising already. Are you saying they should do this concurrently, or would this replace their advertising requirement?

5 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Armine Yalnizyan

I guess you could determine that, but if young people don't know.... The national jobs board has the advantage of being available to any young person anywhere in the country. They can see where the job opportunities are.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay. I appreciate that and I think it's a good recommendation.

A number of you have talked about the youth not being informed about what's available, not well informed about opportunities. You have said there's a bias against skilled trades. I think, Professor Schirle, you mentioned that the information campaigns should begin in junior high, something I agree with.

Professor, do you want to describe what you would provide to students in junior high to make them aware of what opportunities are available to them?

5 p.m.

Associate Professor, Department of Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual

Dr. Tammy Schirle

I think the key piece of information is a set of wages by jobs, what type of investment goes into a given job in terms of time and cost, and then what they can expect in terms of a lifetime wage after coming out of that type of training. Unless you know people in those jobs, you aren't going to have that type of information.

This comes in with the life skills types of courses that they have in junior high. That would be a starting point for me.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Then for senior high, did you say you would do much the same, or would you do a different type of program for that age group?

5 p.m.

Associate Professor, Department of Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual

Dr. Tammy Schirle

I'd do much the same, but there we need to focus a bit more on getting students to fill out the applications, to apply for university and the trades while they're there, to give them assistance in doing it, and also to make sure they are aware of what types of policies there are to help them by way of subsidizing their education, so that they know the full cost.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

These would be the credits that are available to them that you mentioned in your presentation.