Evidence of meeting #36 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employers.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christopher Worswick  Professor, Department of Economics, Carleton University, As an Individual
Martin Lavoie  Director, Manufacturing Competitiveness and Innovation Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Matthew McGuire  Chair, Anti-Money Laundering Committee, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada
Fred Webber  President and Chief Executive Officer, Fruit and Vegetable Dispute Resolution Corporation
Guy Parent  Veterans Ombudsman, Chief Warrant Officer (Retired), Office of the Veterans Ombudsman
Sandra Nelson  As an Individual
John McAvity  Executive Director, Canadian Museums Association
Gregory Thomas  Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Blair Campbell  General Counsel, Corporate Secretary, PEI Mutual Insurance Company
Sean Reid  Vice-President, Federal and Ontario, Progressive Contractors Association of Canada
Shaunna Jennison-Yung  As an Individual

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I get emotional every time I think about it and about the many, many Canadians I hear from, permanent residents and new immigrants, who are saying that it's the same for them.

To both of you, thank you for your courage. I know it's a very emotional time. You know that we'll keep pushing until this program gets fixed.

5:30 p.m.

As an Individual

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren first.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I thank all of you for coming.

I wasn't going to go first, but I want to respond to this.

First of all, I've listened to your story, and what I heard is a very sad story. It must be something that has been very difficult for you.

When I saw the notes today and saw that you were coming, I did a little bit of investigating. I went on Google and tried to find the story. I found one story, and it is in the paper. You're absolutely right. After that, I found nothing. I was kind of at a loss, so I looked up the owner. I called and talked to the owner.

As is so often the case—and Mrs. Jennison-Yung, I'm not here to judge; that's certainly not my job—there's another side to the story. Of course, that other side talks about having to make some changes in the status of the business. It's a business, and one has to pay the bills and has to pay for the lights and all the others costs that are incurred when one runs a business.

I asked the owner some of these pointed questions, because I had your testimony. I asked him to tell me, because if I was going to talk about this, I needed him to tell me that he took issue with this, which is fair enough, because he's not here. Quite frankly, it's really unfair for us to make a judgment.

The other thing I should mention as well is that we're not here to make that judgment. I want to say at the outset that this case at this moment is being looked at, and he couldn't comment on all these things because this case is before a tribunal that looks after this type of thing.

The owner had some different numbers, and I jotted them down. As far as the foreign workers go, you're right. There are some foreign workers who are working there, but I think he talked about three foreign workers out of ten in the restaurant. In housekeeping, he tells me, it's half and half.

Again, I say that because you're going to say one thing and he's going to say another thing. That's for the courts or for those who identify these things.

Please understand I'm not here to criticize or even challenge you on these things. I just want this committee to understand that without having all the facts in front of us, it's pretty hard for us because, understandably, you may not even have all those facts. That's why we're going to look at these things.

I want to say as well that the minister is very concerned about this. This issue is being investigated. We have introduced laws within the temporary foreign worker program such that if abusers are found, they will be charged. I can assure you that is the case.

Do you know what the unemployment rate in your neck of the woods is?

5:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Shaunna Jennison-Yung

I do not know what it is in particular.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

It's 3.1%.

We've had this discussion among the different panel members. This is what makes it so difficult. There are those who say, for instance, maybe in Mr. Keddy's neck of the woods, that they need these people in the fishing industry. Then there'll be those who say, “No, you have a high unemployment rate and you don't need them.” There are people in Mr. Reid's end of the world who say that they have to have these people. But it's 3%, which is virtually nothing, by the way. When economists talk about 3%, there is no unemployment. So there is a reason to have the program.

I don't want to get into too many technical explanations, but as far as evaluating and administrating the program go, when we have regions in our country that have virtually no labour pool, we have to administer it.

There are two things I wanted to say. First of all, we don't have Mr. Siourounis here to defend himself. The other thing is that we are investigating this.

I also want to thank you for coming out.

I just wanted to say that because I think we don't have the whole story.

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Does the witness get to answer, Mr. Chair?

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

I didn't ask for your—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Order.

As members know, the time allocated to a member is the member's time.

Mr. Van Kesteren, do you want to move on?

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

How much time do I have?

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have two minutes.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Oh, good.

I want to talk to Mr. Reid. I want to talk about the foreign worker program.

I want you to tell us the other side of the foreign worker program, what you're experiencing in your neck of the woods, which is the same neck of the woods, which has a severe labour shortage. Can you maybe just tell this committee?

5:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Federal and Ontario, Progressive Contractors Association of Canada

Sean Reid

Our contractors are small, medium, and large industrial contractors building the resource sector in western Canada. These are companies with workforces in the thousands. We don't search for just one welder; we search for 50 or 100 welders at a time, or for 200 welders in some cases.

When a project ramps up, we go to every extent possible to first look in the immediate area. If we're talking about the Fort McMurray area, for example, we'll look in the Fort McMurray area. We'll then look in Calgary and Edmonton. Then we'll look in B.C. and ultimately out east as well. The reality is that to ramp up for some of these projects, there just aren't enough welders at the scale we're talking about, in terms of the demand on contractors, to address those needs in the timeframe we have.

We support all the government's work and investment in developing apprenticeships, but we have an immediate problem. If we want to continue to keep these projects moving at a prosperous and efficient rate, we have to get more people in here, and that's what the temporary foreign worker program actually helps us address.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Very quickly, the fact that you're pulling the labour pool, this is affecting every aspect of labour, I would assume, from the skilled to the unskilled.

5:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Federal and Ontario, Progressive Contractors Association of Canada

Sean Reid

I would say that it's primarily the high skilled but certainly there are skills at all.... In some circumstances we're short of general labour as well, but definitely we're feeling the pinch at the higher skilled labour level.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Mr. Cuzner, go ahead, please.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thanks very much.

Could we be fairly quick? We have only seven minutes.

This is for Mr. Thomas first. We prefer shearing the sheep to slaughtering them, but if the wool is used to pull over our eyes, then we get a little testy, so I know you wouldn't want to do that.

Perhaps you could give us a quick comment. Your reference is that the premiums paid for EI are really an indirect tax. Some argue that they would be best used to invest in skills training; others say they should be used for job creation, if they go back to employers. Do you have a quick thought on that?

5:40 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

Gregory Thomas

We would prefer that the money be left in the pockets of working Canadians to go out and spend in the economy, because the overhead administrative costs—11¢ for every dollar that makes it into the pocket of a recipient—are unheard of. Those support the economy in the national capital region, obviously, but it's not an efficient system and it should be reformed.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Do you see it as an indirect tax, really?

5:40 p.m.

Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

Gregory Thomas

It's the most direct tax, because you can't shelter it by putting money into retirement savings. It's a regressive payroll tax, and it has an immediate effect on diminishing consumer spending in Canada, which is—

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I'm going to cut you off, because I want to get in a little question for everybody.

Ms. Jennison-Yung, I first want to identify the situation that Ms. Nelson referred to in her comments, the uncomfortable situation that the temporary foreign workers found themselves in, of doing household chores for the employer. I really respect the fact that you've taken their well-being into consideration.

Were all of you, the temporary foreign workers and you folks, let go on the same day, or were you guys let go, and the temporary foreign workers were kept on?

5:40 p.m.

As an Individual

Shaunna Jennison-Yung

Well, we're not sure of that.

We all got a formal written notice of discharge saying that they were discharging all staff. At the time, they said the contract workers would get a different letter later. This is one of our questions for Mr. Kenney, because if we were all discharged—and as the letter stated, “all staff have been discharged and we will interview those we want to come back and work for us”—and the employer fired or laid off temporary foreign workers, Service Canada would need to be notified. ROEs would need to be printed up, and new LMO applications would need to be submitted. That was the process under which everyone was fired.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

With absolute respect, I know Mr. Van Kesteren to be an honourable member. I know he wasn't trying to imply anything by where he was going with his questioning, but were the temporary foreign workers doing the same work that you guys were doing? Is that work being done by temporary foreign workers now?

5:40 p.m.

As an Individual

Shaunna Jennison-Yung

Absolutely.

You're right. We can't get that information on who is on contract and who is not. All I would like to say to his question is that if he's saying there are only two or three or it doesn't matter, they still have their jobs. Ms. Nelson and I do not.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thanks very much.

Mr. Reid, how much are your members spending now on skills development apprenticeship?