Evidence of meeting #109 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Macdonald  Economist, National Office, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Stéphane Poitras  Associate Professor, School of Rehabilitation Sciences, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Ottawa
Andrew Lovell  As an Individual
Guy Goulet  Professor of Taxation, Université du Québec en Outaouais
James Merrigan  Partner, Poole Althouse, As an Individual
Kathleen Lahey  Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual
Gary Sands  Chair, Small Business Coalition, and Senior Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers
Chris Roberts  Director, Social and Economic Policy, Canadian Labour Congress
Laurent Marcoux  President, Canadian Medical Association
Charles Lammam  Director, Fiscal Studies, Fraser Institute
Jennifer Kim Drever  Partner, Peace Region Tax Leader, MNP LLP
Eddy Burello  Partner, MNP LLP
Michael Wolfson  Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
John Feeley  Vice-President, Member Relevance, Canadian Medical Association

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Again, as we know, many small businesses are not successful for whatever reason. It is quite a risk.

The current proposal around passive investments obviously does not apply to public companies. I believe you said that earlier.

If someone is looking to do a tech start-up, for example, that is very risky because who knows how the marketplace will play out? With start-ups, especially in Canada, families are the first line of investment because banks will not lend a lot of money on an untested concept. Are we creating a different playing field for a start-up company to be able to gather investment to start up first as a public company?

11:25 a.m.

Partner, Peace Region Tax Leader, MNP LLP

Jennifer Kim Drever

We absolutely are. There are so many parts of these new rules that impact those start-ups. If we were to start with say, two brothers both under the age of 25 starting up a business together, they are going to be impacted by those tax on split income rules. It's not just about the spouses and the kids. Any related person who owns shares in that company, yourself included, could be impacted by that. Firstly, they could be taking out, say $30,000 a year in dividends, and they are paying the maximum tax rate on that. They are paying 45% on that in Ontario.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you. We'll have to cut it there.

We have time for one single question from Mr. Fergus, and then we'll have to adjourn.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you all for coming today.

Mr. Wolfson, I am just following up on Ms. Drever and this whole discussion regarding retirement. I noticed in your comments that you didn't talk about the purpose of using these retained earnings, using a CCPC for retirement. I wonder if you have some thoughts on that. Is there good rationale for it?

11:30 a.m.

Prof. Michael Wolfson

I do have some thoughts. For the members' benefit, I spent 1983 on the research staff of the special Parliamentary committee on pension reform, and that was the committee, among other things, that recommended comprehensive limits for tax assistance for retirement savings.

It was flowing from that, I think, that the Department of Finance increased the RRSP limits to what you see now to bring them in line with the limits on defined benefit pension plans in order to equalize the access to tax assistance for the self-employed or people who didn't have a workplace pension plan.

In one of our discussions, one of the members of that committee said that a fair maximum for tax assistance is about the income of a high school principal. In fact, the access to tax-assisted retirement saving is somewhat higher than that, but in the ball park.

I was really surprised by a witness before the break who said they needed to be able to retain earnings in their private company, not only to capitalize the company but for retirement savings and to pay for their children's education. There are other ways to pay for children's education.

I get love letters because of some of the articles I publish. One person emailed me and said, after a bit of discussion, that he had graduated with $150,000 of student debt. He was a doctor, and he was able to pay it off. It took him three years to pay it off. My God, what kind of income was this person walking into?

Back to the retirement savings, I don't know the details. I was just looking at section 8515 the other day for these individual pension plans. We used to have an issue many years ago when I worked in finance about what we called “top hat” plans, and it seems to have been tightened up considerably, but I assume it's still the case that you can buy retroactive plan enrichments. If you pay yourself a $20,000-a-year salary, which is relatively minimal, in order to set the foundation, and then you come along toward the end of your career and start paying yourself $100,000 or $200,000 a year for the last five years in a final average plan, you could buy back past service based on the multi-$100,000 salary. I think there are things that one might want to look at.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We are going to have to cut you off there, Mr. Wolfson.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank all the witnesses. We've covered a lot of ground in this panel and the previous one this morning. On behalf of the committee, I appreciate your taking the time to come forward with your points of view and your answers in this fairly active discussion on tax planning. Thank you.

With that, we will suspend for a couple of minutes until the minister arrives.

The meeting is suspended.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I call the meeting to order again. I believe the cameras know they have to leave. Thank you.

Welcome, Minister Morneau. As you know, the committee has had four panels this week related to tax planning using private corporations. We just finished two panels prior to your coming in. We appreciate hearing from you as well on this issue.

I just want to say to members that in Charlottetown's The Guardian, which covers the Island like the dew, there was a really good article by John Risley this morning, which applies to us today. At the end of the article, he says that this issue “shouldn’t be about political partisanship; it should be about good public policy.” I would hope that when we are discussing this issue today, we can keep that in mind.

Mr. Morneau, I don't know whether you have an opening statement, but the floor is yours.

11:40 a.m.

Toronto Centre Ontario

Liberal

Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do have an opening statement.

First of all, to the honourable members, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today about our consultation on tax planning using private corporations. I also want to thank you for taking the time to hear witnesses on our tax fairness plan.

For me, it's important to be here and to have the opportunity to listen to your views. This is a consultation, after all, and it is important to get your opinions, ideas, and insights that will help us to get this right. I'm looking forward to taking questions in a few minutes, but first I want to give you a bit of context for what it is we're trying to achieve.

The fact is that when you talk to people across the country, there is a lot of anxiety that the next generation—your kids or your grandkids—may just not be as well off as the generation of today. That's what motivates me, and that's what motivates our government. We want to make sure we create the conditions for all Canadians to succeed in what we know is a changing economy. To get there, I am committed to ensuring a healthy, thriving business environment and to protecting Canadian businesses' ability to invest, to grow, and to create jobs.

I think it's worth starting by taking a look at where we are right now. When we came into office a couple of years ago, we made a commitment to invest in Canada's middle class. We lowered taxes on middle-class Canadians and increased child benefits for those most in need. We invested for the long term in our infrastructure, because we saw this as critically important to the future of our country and to the future of our economy.

Right now we're the fastest-growing country in the G7 countries, and by a wide margin. Our economy over the last quarter grew at an impressively strong 4.5%, faster than it's grown since the beginning of 2006. In the two years since we've come to office, 400,000 new jobs have been created. Thanks in part to strong economic growth and the smart investments we've made in Canadians and for Canadians, we find ourselves with a fiscal position that's much stronger than we anticipated even only as recently as March. For the fiscal year that ended March 31, our budget deficit is $11.6 billion less than what we had projected only a relatively short while ago in budget 2016.

That's all good news, but we need to face facts. Growing the economy is not good enough. We have to work to make sure that the fruits of that economic growth go to all Canadians.

We need an economy where all Canadians, and not just a very small group of the wealthiest, should benefit from the advantages and opportunities that go along with this economic success.

There's still work to do to ensure fairness for middle-class Canadians. That's what we're talking about when we talk about our tax system—ensuring that everyone benefits from our economic growth, not just the wealthy few. From the very beginning, we said that we want an economy that benefits the middle class and all those people who are working hard to improve their situations. At the heart of that goal is a very simple premise: every Canadian needs to pay his or her fair share of taxes. That's why one of my very first acts as finance minister was to raise taxes on the top 1% so that we could cut them for nine million Canadians across our country.

One of my principal responsibilities as Minister of Finance is to ensure that our tax system is fair, efficient, and supports growth, and that it is also equitable and treats all Canadians fairly. I want you to know that I take these objectives very seriously. In each of our first two budgets, we put tax fairness front and centre, backed by significant new investments in our economy. We increased resources for the Canada Revenue Agency to improve the enforcement of tax laws that are already in place. We also continue to participate in efforts with our global partners to combat international tax evasion and avoidance.

But we're not done yet.

Honourable members, setting up a private corporation offers hard-working, middle-class business owners the ability to sell shares, raise capital, and limit liability. It gives them access to the lowest small business tax rate in G7 countries, but we know that, for the wealthy, incorporation offers something different. In some cases, it offers something quite different. What that means is that a high-income, incorporated professional can be taxed at a lower rate—for example, in the case of a doctor taxed at a lower rate than a salaried nurse practitioner working in the same office.

As the economy grows, Canadians need and deserve to know that their tax system is fair. Right now, we're just pointing out that it's not. These are big changes, and we know we need to get them right. We know we need your help and your feedback on what we're trying to achieve. That's why Minister Bardish Chagger, my new parliamentary secretary Joël Lightbound, and I are visiting small business owners, professionals, farmers, and fishers across the country and listening to ideas and answering questions.

Yesterday I spoke with Canadians across our country during a Facebook Live event and with a teleconference town hall. Tomorrow, I will be meeting with what I expect will be hundreds more in Oakville. We know it's important that we listen to people's concerns and that we listen to their ideas. It's also important for us to clearly state that hard-working Canadians, hard-working small business owners, and middle-class Canadians are clearly not the focus of our proposals.

To hard-working family farmers, we want you to know that we support you.

We know, for example, that 80% of the passive income in this country is earned by 2% of the CCPCs that are out there. The measures we're proposing will only affect a very small number of private proportions and a very, very small number of Canadians. Small businesses will continue to benefit from the lowest small business tax rate among G7 countries. The changes to the tax system being proposed will not impair a business's ability to invest, to compete, or to grow. The proposed approaches in addressing passive investment income are not about money that's being invested in a business. They're about money that's being taken out of the business, ensuring it's being taxed fairly, ensuring that the small business tax rate and the corporate tax rate actually help to support economic growth and do what we want them to do, which is to create jobs for Canadians across the country.

We're always open to better ways to fix the problems that we've identified in our consultations. But I want to be clear. We're going to fix them, because our government was elected to help to grow the middle class.

Mr. Chair, I would be pleased to take questions from the honourable members.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

I believe we have a hard stop at 12:30, so that means we can get about eight people in at five minutes each, starting with Mr. Sorbara.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

Tax fairness is something very important for all Canadians. They want to know that they have confidence in our tax system, in terms of delivering services to citizens from coast to coast to coast. Just as important, we want to ensure that we have a strong social fabric and a strong economy. We need those through a tax system that incentivizes the right things to do and doesn't incentivize folks to do things that they really shouldn't and that the tax system is not there to do.

What I would like to know, as someone with a finance background, is that the tax fairness can be put to use and can be used as a mechanism for growing the economy and increasing investment in Canada.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Maybe I can just start by saying thank you, because I know that you've heard from many of your constituents, many people, whether they're professionals or small business owners in your riding, and you've come to me with the comments and come to me with the ideas that people are bringing forward. It's really only with this that we can get these proposals right. That is in fact what we're trying to do.

I will say that we have really important objectives in dealing with a tax system that's created, over the last half a generation, an increasing ability for people to use tax planning so that they get themselves into a lower tax rate than other Canadians. Going along with that, as people do that tax planning, as more money doesn't go into the active business but instead is invested in passive investments that are essentially intended to stay there for the long term and not actually advance the business, that's money that doesn't go into our economy.

We decided, as a country—and I think that decision was a good one, and it was by successive governments—to have low corporate tax rates that encourage investment, and low small-business tax rates that encourage people to start and grow a small business. But when those encouragements leave money not actually doing what we were hoping it would do, growing the business, we are not doing what we hoped. We are trying to encourage people to invest in their active business with a low tax rate, and at the same time make sure that they reinvest in that business by creating the incentive for them to do so, and if not, for them to take the money out of the business, as they will, for the management of their family affairs.

We think that these incentives will help to create a tax system that's fairer and also improve our economic activity.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Thank you, Minister, for that answer.

In the last decade or so, business investment levels in Canada have not been where they should be. There is a lot of capital sitting in passive investments that could be put to use, creating jobs in Canada. We are doing well. We have an unemployment rate of 6.2%, a participation rate that's ticked up, 400,000 new jobs created, and we have a very sound financial footing with our triple-A rating. It seems to me that there is a lot of capital out there that could be incentivized to be put back into the economy, which may not be being utilized at this moment in time, and I would love to hear your thoughts on that aspect.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

We couldn't agree more. Keeping the tax rate low for small businesses we think is critically important. We think it does encourage people to make investments in their business, but, as I mentioned, if those encouragements don't land the business making investments in their active business, then it's not having the desired impact.

You point out the amount of investment that we have in this country. We have significantly lower investment than in a like situation in the United States, about a 30% lower investment with about 25% less productivity in our businesses. We do need to realize that it's important to get people to invest in businesses. That's what will create jobs. That's what will allow the middle class to thrive in our country. Starting with a fair tax system gives the next generation of people the incentive to actually make those kinds of investments in businesses for the long term. We know that a fair tax system, and one that encourages investment, can go side by side and make a real difference for Canadians.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Thank you, Minister.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you both.

Mr. Poilievre, you have five minutes.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Thank you, Minister.

When small businesses set aside money within their company in anticipation of their need for sick leave, for a rainy day, or for retirement, they already pay a tax rate of between 50% and 55% on the resulting passive income. You've said that's not enough. You want to raise the rate by taxing that money a second time when the owner takes the money out. In fact, the rate they pay is the same as shareholders ultimately pay in a larger public company that trades on the stock market. You say this is about fairness, that everyone should be treated equally. Fairness is a relative term. By comparison, what rate of taxation did you pay when you sold your $30 million of shares in Morneau Shepell?

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I really don't think that relates to this discussion, but you're welcome to answer it, Minister.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I'm happy to talk about why we think the system needs to be rethought for some of these advantages.

What we have right now is a system where if a business is encouraged to be started, because we have a low tax rate, then those business owners or those professionals can go into that situation and make some investments in that business. If they make profits in that business, they have the advantage of a very low tax rate, and that's encouraging them, we hope, to invest in that business to allow it to continue to grow.

What's very clear in our proposals is—

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Mr. Chair, the question relates to the comparison of tax rates between those paid by a small business that invests income, invests funds, to prepare for sick leave, retirement, or a rainy day, and the tax that is paid by wealthy executives of companies that trade on Bay Street. I can depersonalize it and ask it in general.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Then that question is fine.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Let me just ask then—

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Let's not personalize this discussion.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Let me just ask about any retiring executive who draws passive income out of a publicly traded company. The total maximum tax rate that person would pay is around 55%. You propose double taxation on small private businesses that leads to rates much higher than that.

Why is it that you believe companies that trade on Bay Street should pay a significantly lower tax rate on their passive income than the ma-and-pa corner stores have to pay on theirs?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Minister, you have equal time.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

As I said, I'd like to answer this question and perhaps help to illuminate a misunderstanding from the honourable member.

What we have here is a situation where we propose that the small business tax rate be continued and that people investing in small business continue to be able to take that money that they earn in their business and invest it in their active business. We also propose that should they decide to leave that money in the business to make active investments in the future, that this is something that should be encouraged—