Evidence of meeting #122 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aiib.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gervais Coulombe  Chief, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Antoine Brunelle-Côté  Director, International Policy and Analysis Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Nicole Giles  Director General, International Finance and Development Policy Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Neil Saravanamuttoo  Chief, Multilateral Institutions, International Finance and Development Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Anchela Nadarajah  Economist, Multilateral Institutions, International Finance and Development Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Manuel Dussault  Chief, Securities Policy Division, Department of Finance
Justin Brown  Director, Financial Stability, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Christopher Graham  Principal Economist, Bank of Canada
Hugues Vaillancourt  Chief, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Lorraine McKenzie Presley  Director General, Portfolio Management and Corporate Secretariat, Department of Natural Resources
Margaret Hill  Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development
Réal Gagnon  Senior Policy Analyst, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you both.

Mr. McLeod is next.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

I'll be quick.

I really like the section on paid leave for traditional aboriginal practices. As a person who has worked with aboriginal people my whole life, I know that when the geese are flying, when the fish run is on, or when it's moose season, that's usually the time when we lose a lot of aboriginal employees.

I'm curious because I know that moose hunting.... I'm the only Liberal MP that lives in an aboriginal community, I believe. My relatives and the elders in my community probably could take just a couple of days to go get a moose or a caribou, whereas if it were me, it might take more than five days or a couple of weeks maybe. My skill level is not the same.

Anyway, I'm curious as to how the department consulted with indigenous Canadians when it determined that the five days of leave was the number for traditional aboriginal practices.

6:10 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

One of the consultations, regional round tables, that I mentioned was specifically done with indigenous people from indigenous communities, employers who had indigenous employees, chambers of commerce in the north, and things like that. A telecommunication company, the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network, was the one that was done by video conference just because it was easier to do it that way. That's how they were consulted.

You may be interested to know that in the discussion paper that was released to underpin the consultations, specific reference was made to a leave for people to participate in indigenous practices. It generated a lot of discussion, almost all of it positive. In fact, a number of employers told us that they already offer that kind of leave. Our estimate is that about 25,000 employees in the federally regulated private sector could potentially benefit from this leave.

In terms of the five days—because this is a groundbreaking leave—we have a very unique data base of collective agreements across the country, not just federally regulated. We found 21 federally regulated employers, unionized, who have collective agreements for these purposes. They range from offering two days to seven days, and most of them were five days. We tried the five out with the people we consulted with, and they thought that was a good number, that it made sense to them.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

I'm going to assume, from what you said, that there is strong support from the aboriginal and indigenous organizations.

Who determines what a traditional aboriginal practice is? Is that defined somewhere?

6:10 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

In the proposed legislation, it indicates that the leave would be to participate in traditional indigenous or aboriginal practices including hunting, fishing, and harvesting. That's a suggestive list. These three things were things that were clearly identified for us as practices. There would obviously be other practices that would satisfy the requirements to take this leave.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

As I said, I live in a small aboriginal community. When court is going to be held, and there is jury duty, they need all these potential jurors. The community I live in has 800 people in it, and they put a call out for maybe 250 people to show up for jury selection. It shuts down the whole town. The school and the stores shut down because there is nobody left to work.

What is in this to protect the employers if they have a staff of 10, and they are all indigenous, and they all want to take unpaid leave at the same time? Is there a mechanism so that there is a way that the employer can decide he needs a certain number of people to operate?

6:10 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

In fact, one of the employers we spoke with described a similar situation. What they told us was that they, as an employer, took quite significant efforts to make sure that people were flown in to the town to be able to keep operations going, or work was adjusted in terms of when it got done.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Mr. McLeod.

We'll have Mr. Kmiec and then Mr. Fergus.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Mr. McLeod asked all the great questions I was going to ask on that specific section, but I have more. I always have more.

On the leave for traditional aboriginal practices, in proposed paragraph 206.8(1)(d) it says “any practice prescribed by regulation”. To Mr. McLeod's point, who then gets to decide what will be prescribed in that regulation?

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

That's a power that's given to the Governor in Council. In compliance with the federal regulatory process, which I'm sure you're familiar with, any proposed regulations would go through consultations, various prepublications, and things like that.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Which minister, then, would be responsible for filling that in? Would it be a regulation or go through the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations?

That's kind of the catch-all term for anything that could be missed that's not hunting, fishing, or harvesting.

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

Right, and that was the “including” part.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

It says in the documentation, though, that the employer can then request in writing from the employee documentation to prove all the things in the leave, but it also says:

The employee shall provide that documentation only if it is reasonably practicable for him or her to obtain and provide it.

Can you explain what that means? If I go on a hunting trip to hunt moose because I need to, because I live in a community that doesn't have a grocery store, which a lot of communities, even in northern Alberta, lack, do you want me to bring the sausage into the office to show you or the hunting licence, or...?

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

The provision, as I recall, is that the documentation relates specifically to the issue of whether the employee is an aboriginal person.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Okay.

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

It's not the purpose.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Is it a status card? In the case of Métis...?

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

They would need to be Métis, Indian, or Inuit, which is the definition in the Constitution.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

In the case of the Métis, in Alberta, for instance, there are really two types. There's the Métis Nation of Alberta, and you can get a card through them. They have their own process for confirming whether you are a member they will recognize. There's also the Metis Settlements General Council. We have settlements in Alberta that have been given authority and the ability to designate who is a member of their community. There are almost two definitions there.

Would a federally regulated employer in the province of Alberta be able, then, to determine which one they use, or are they supposed to use both for the purposes of this documentation?

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

Do you want to try that one, Réal?

6:15 p.m.

Réal Gagnon Senior Policy Analyst, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development

The act has been drafted taking into consideration all the situations of all the aboriginal groups in the north of provinces and sometimes in the south, in Quebec, Ontario, and all of that. Some have a kind of status, if I may say so, and some don't. Actually, we heard that Métis sometimes don't even have any card, any status, and all of that.

We drafted it so that if it's reasonably practicable to document and to prove it, yes, but basically the employer will have to rely on good faith and on the goodwill of the person who says, “I'm aboriginal”. The person may claim that, yes, it was traditional practice, but that's not what they have to document. They have to document that they are aboriginal, but there are situations where there won't be any card, any status, or any documentation to prove it, and they shouldn't be denied. We don't want to exclude these aboriginal people.

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

I would add that the leave is for five days and it's unpaid, so the chance that someone would falsely claim an entitlement is probably quite small.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I have another question. In the section on leave for victims of family violence, what definition of “family violence” is used?

6:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Employment and Social Development

Margaret Hill

There is a regulation-making authority provided for in the proposed legislation to define “family”. At the moment, the most recent definition of “family” in the code is the one related to compassionate care. Logically, that would be a similar one to emulate. It is quite inclusive.