Evidence of meeting #140 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fintrac.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Eby  Attorney General of British Columbia, Ministry of Attorney General, Government of British Columbia
Kyle Kemper  Executive Director, Blockchain Association of Canada
Dina McNeil  Director, Government Relations, Canadian Real Estate Association
Ian Russell  President and Chief Executive Officer, Investment Industry Association of Canada
Denis Meunier  Senior Advisor on Beneficial Ownership, Transparency International Canada
Jeremy Clark  Assistant Professor, Concordia Institute for Information Systems Engineering, Concordia University, As an Individual
Simon Parham  Legal Counsel, Canadian Real Estate Association

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here.

One of the areas you touched on is something I have asked several questions on, especially to FINTRAC, in terms of accountability when they put together a report and send it to the police or to investigators. I don't think even FINTRAC knows if it's then taken on.

It sounds as though, based on earlier testimony, FINTRAC believes it has the resources to handle the claims or the issues coming in. But one of the areas I was curious about—so I appreciate your testimony—is how anybody know, even if CSIS were to provide FINTRAC with information, that they then put that into a report and pass it on. How do we know if anybody is actually acting on that once FINTRAC makes the report?

With that being said, something raised in testimony was about the federal committee on public safety and the possibility of oversight opportunities there. I can't predict what the recommendations from this committee would be or even what the government's actions would be.

What would be the role, then, for provincial and territorial governments? You mentioned the frustration of not knowing if the police you are responsible for are acting on this. Have you given any thought to a potential role for that oversight, keeping in mind, for example, that a committee might be given that oversight role in the future?

If you haven't given that any thought, that's totally fine. I'm just kind of wrestling with how we deal with it from the national perspective while keeping in mind that police forces fall under provincial and territorial jurisdictions, in some instances.

How do we work together? Do you have any thoughts on working together and on how to close that gap?

4:55 p.m.

Attorney General of British Columbia, Ministry of Attorney General, Government of British Columbia

David Eby

I think that is a really important question to raise with FINTRAC and with police services. One of the things I can imagine the police would report is that FINTRAC would ask, “Have you taken action on a file?” The police would report back, or Revenue Canada would report back, “Yes, we've taken action.”

What would be useful for us to know is how we compare with other provinces. If the police are taking action on 10% of files in British Columbia, is that similar to other jurisdictions, or is it 90% in other jurisdictions? FINTRAC is in a unique position to advise us on the response they're receiving in B.C. or from specific police agencies. We have municipal forces as well as RCMP. Are there some that provide better responses than others?

Again, FINTRAC is in a unique position to advise us, but as far as I can tell, they can't or don't. Whether or not FINTRAC has adequate resources for the job they've been asked to take on is also a question for FINTRAC. I do think there is a way for us to know, generally—at a high level—about the responses they're receiving from law enforcement. And I—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you. I think—

4:55 p.m.

Attorney General of British Columbia, Ministry of Attorney General, Government of British Columbia

David Eby

Sorry. Just in closing, I note that we have a number of provincial recommendations, about everything from policing to the crown to others, that are coming to us from Peter German. I encourage the committee, because this issue may also may also be dealt with, to get your hands on that report once it's publicly released as well.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you.

Just to clarify, based on the testimony we've had and the backgrounders from FINTRAC, its role is simply reporting. Asking that follow-up question, the suggestion that I would probably take from your testimony, then, is to extend FINTRAC's mandate to have some level of feedback on the reverse. In fairness, I don't think that they're collecting this data or this information and just aren't providing it. As it stands right now, its mandate doesn't provide for collecting that information. Perhaps this is an area where, based on what you're saying, just to have that reporting back to the various governments through FINTRAC would help, so then you can take that back within your mandate.

4:55 p.m.

Attorney General of British Columbia, Ministry of Attorney General, Government of British Columbia

David Eby

I would be very concerned if it were a one-way channel of communication, just FINTRAC broadcasting with no feedback coming back from law enforcement. If that's the case, and your committee has uncovered that, I think that's a serious problem.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You have time for a very short one.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

In terms of the casinos, I think my colleague mentioned having cash brought in, as well as this idea that if it were anywhere else, and anyone was walking around with that much cash, they would be treated differently.

Is there some gap in federal regulation or in the legislation specifically around casinos that we should look at?

4:55 p.m.

Attorney General of British Columbia, Ministry of Attorney General, Government of British Columbia

David Eby

I think that the challenge, if there is one other than just the sheer number of bodies around enforcement, is the requirement for proving the index offence in order to sustain a money laundering charge. I would hope that the committee would be looking at what tools might be available to address the kind of situation, in which someone who walks in with a duffle bag full of $20 bills who is unable to explain where the money came from or who refuses to do so...because that's the kind of situation we faced in British Columbia.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

With that, thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Thank you to the committee for the questions.

5 p.m.

Attorney General of British Columbia, Ministry of Attorney General, Government of British Columbia

David Eby

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, committee members, for your thoughtful questions. I really appreciated them.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Good luck catching your flight.

5 p.m.

Attorney General of British Columbia, Ministry of Attorney General, Government of British Columbia

David Eby

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We will suspend for a couple of minutes. Could the other witnesses please come to the table? If any of you have to catch a flight, let us know, and we'll try to deal with you more quickly.

We'll suspend for three minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll reconvene. My apologies for the votes, which are running us a half an hour behind.

We'll start with the Blockchain Association of Canada, and Mr. Kemper, Executive Director.

Welcome.

5:05 p.m.

Kyle Kemper Executive Director, Blockchain Association of Canada

The Blockchain Association of Canada welcomes the opportunity to present today and share our perspectives. The Blockchain Association of Canada's mission is to promote the acceptance and use of digital assets and blockchain-based technologies. We are supported by a diverse community that represents the industry both in Canada and globally. Through education, advocacy, and coordination with policy-makers, regulatory agencies, and industry across various jurisdictions, our goal is to develop a pro-growth legal environment that fosters innovation, job creation, and investment.

We represent a community of the world's leading innovators, operators, and investors in the digital asset and blockchain technology ecosystem, including leading-edge start-ups, software companies, global IT consultancies, financial institutions, insurance companies, law firms, and investment firms. The BAC understands that while many new financial technologies, or fintechs, are emerging, blockchain and other distributed ledger technologies, DLTs, impact governments and regulators throughout the globe. DLT applications offer a wide variety of practical and readily applicable opportunities for many industries.

The BAC supports legal and regulatory clarity around DLT and related smart contract technologies. Defined contours are needed to combat regulatory overreach, which is a potential issue for DLT in many jurisdiction at this time. Onerous regulatory requirements present obstacles to industry growth as DLT solutions develop and seek to enter the marketplace. A significant impediment to the fintech industry is the risk of burdensome regulations being imposed too early, which would hinder future innovation, discourage further investment in innovation, and/or restrict the utilization and incorporation of DLT into the financial services industry and other industries.

DLT raises many novel legal issue for lawmakers and regulators. For example, decentralized technologies may operate based on automated protocols and lack a centralized governor. These issues must be carefully studied before imposing rules that may not be well suited for their intended purpose. Lawmakers and regulators must not act too quickly by imposing regulations that risk hindering the efficiencies and promise that such technologies may deliver.

The BAC generally encourages regulators and governments to adopt a do-no-harm approach to regulation to allow DLT to develop and companies to innovate within a principles-based rather than a prescriptive environment.

The BAC encourages the government and regulators to facilitate the development and implementation of fintech, and specifically DLT, by supporting regulatory harmony. Consistency in regulatory treatment will be an important factor towards industry growth.

The Blockchain Association of Canada supports regulatory regimes, only to the extent that such obligations clarify the regulatory environment and do not pose additional or overlapping burdens and potential regulatory conflicts. The potential for multiple oversight authorities to certify and impose requirements on this emerging technology may hinder the development of the industry and the evolution of the technologies both in Canada and abroad.

I look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Kemper.

We'll turn to the Canadian Real Estate Association, with Ms. McNeil, Director, and Mr. Parham, Legal Counsel.

The floor is yours.

5:05 p.m.

Dina McNeil Director, Government Relations, Canadian Real Estate Association

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm Dina McNeil, Director of Government Relations at the Canadian Real Estate Association, or CREA. I'm joined today by Simon Parham, one of CREA's in-house legal counsel. We would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to participate in the five-year review of the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act.

Our membership is made up of more than 125,000 real estate brokers and agents across the country. The Canadian Real Estate Association, or CREA for short, is one of Canada's largest single-industry trade associations. We work on behalf of our members, as well as homebuyers and the public.

Given the size, importance, and stability of the real estate sector in this country, we understand why investors from around the world would be drawn to investing in real estate in Canada. We recognize that CREA and its members have a role to play in Canada's money laundering and terrorist financing regime. We continue to work with FINTRAC to improve guidance and create conditions conducive to realtors complying with the existing obligations. We communicate regularly with our members on the importance of complying with the law. We do this by delivering in-person or online presentations across the country, and by sharing comprehensive, updated information through articles, blogs, monthly newsletters, and email communications.

CREA also provides valuable tools such as FAQs and template compliance manuals and forms to facilitate record keeping and to help with the reporting obligations of our members. Most importantly, realtors and their brokerage offices from across this country do their part by trying their best to comply with Canada's money laundering and terrorist financing regime. They maintain complex, detailed compliance regimes and conduct a myriad of regulatory paperwork that FINTRAC requires, but that ultimately never sees the light of day.

That said, we do have concerns with the law and the application of the law as it stands today. As this committee has heard from other witnesses, money laundering and terrorist financing activities are highly intricate and complex, and are often difficult to recognize and detect. Many different actors and parties are involved in real estate transactions and we believe they should all have a role to play in combatting money laundering and terrorist financing.

However, we are concerned about the reporting and record keeping obligations, which cause a significant burden on realtors. It is not just a matter of reporting suspicious transactions to FINTRAC. Members have to keep various records and create a detailed compliance regime. This involves identifying a compliance officer, developing and maintaining compliance policies and procedures, conducting risk assessments of business activities and relationships, creating and maintaining a written ongoing compliance training program, and conducting an effectiveness review to test the compliance of the program every two years. The regulatory burden is significant and many brokers and agents try their best, but are frustrated, confused, and at a loss at how to keep up with the overwhelming requirements.

We feel that insufficient attention is being paid to the regulatory burden and compliance costs. Many realtors operate small businesses and have minimal expertise in analyzing money laundering indicators. Additionally, changes to the regulations and guidance are frequent and at times unclear, which makes it difficult for small business owners to keep up. We feel that implementing new requirements around beneficial ownership and politically exposed persons would cause significant frustration and increase the cost of compliance drastically. CREA would like to see a stable legislative and regulatory environment—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Could I get you to slow down just a little bit.

5:10 p.m.

Director, Government Relations, Canadian Real Estate Association

Dina McNeil

They can't keep up?

CREA would like to see a stable legislative and regulatory environment giving realtors an opportunity to fully understand and comply with the existing obligations without continually having to adjust.

Closing existing loopholes for the real estate sector should be a focus of the government. We are encouraged that the white paper released by the Department of Finance presents the idea of expanding the types of reporting entities that must report to FINTRAC. This would create a more level playing field for real estate; yet, an obvious gap in the law continues to be ignored. Currently, real estate can be sold directly by individuals, which creates a vulnerability where money launderers can conduct real estate transactions without the transparency and examination required when using a realtor. CREA feels that reporting and record keeping obligations should be extended to the companies that facilitate such transactions. While the government is considering extending obligations to other reporting entities, we feel it would be wise to include the for-sale-by-owners companies.

If obligations continue to evolve, education and ongoing outreach efforts are essential for new and existing realtors to make sure that they understand their requirements. We ask that FINTRAC put in place a better outreach strategy to build strong partnerships with reporting entities to maximize compliance. It would also be helpful to clarify existing guidance in a manner that is meaningful to brokers and agents, and adopt policy interpretations that make sense. FINTRAC has the responsibility to try harder to understand that all reporting entities are not the same. A one-size-fits-all model should not be applied across the board. Moreover, when reporting entities ask for policy interpretations and clarifications, responding to the entities' concerns in a timely manner is critical. We feel that greater outreach would have a greater impact in fighting money laundering and terrorist financing for the real estate sector.

We look forward to the committee's report and continuing to help improve the proceeds of crime money laundering and terrorist financing regime.

Thank you for listening.

Mr. Parham and I would be glad to answer any questions the committee members have.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much.

We'll turn now to Mr. Russell, President and CEO of the Investment Industry Association of Canada.

Welcome, Ian.

5:15 p.m.

Ian Russell President and Chief Executive Officer, Investment Industry Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Ian Russell, and I am President and CEO of the Investment Industry Association of Canada, or IIAC.

Thank you for the invitation to come before the committee today to present the views of the IIAC.

We look forward to giving our views on your five-year statutory review of the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act.

As some of you know, the IIAC is the national association representing 123 investment dealers on securities regulation and public policy. Dealers have important obligations as reporting entities under the act and its regulations, similar to the other regulated financial intermediaries in Canada. Our members follow an extensive and onerous process to verify client identity and to ensure that they do not represent unacceptable financial crime risk. They're also required to have in place real-time risk mitigation measures to prevent suspicious transactions, and due diligence processes, especially in dealing with politically exposed persons.

We keep detailed records, and we submit mandatory reports on suspicious transactions to FINTRAC. We are subject to an audit process by FINTRAC and other regulatory authorities in Canada. We reviewed the Department of Finance discussion paper, and our perspective is really framed through that consultation paper that proposes measures both to improve the effectiveness of the legislation and also to facilitate the obligations and responsibilities of reporting entities.

First off, we applaud the consensus reached by the federal, provincial, and territorial finance ministers last December to improve the transparency and consistency of beneficial ownership information and access to the information.

Although corporate information reporting requirements are in place at both the federal and provincial levels, there are differences that pertain to the definition, collection, and disclosure of the information and the access to the information. In our view, governments really need to move expeditiously to harmonize beneficial ownership standards across Canada and in both the federal and provincial corporate law statutes.

They really need to look carefully at mechanisms to improve access to this information. We believe that the committee could play a significant role in encouraging federal and provincial governments to give a high priority to creating a central registry that can contain current and accurate information related to beneficial ownership. As was cited here in earlier testimony, the example that stands in front of us is the U.K.'s people with significant control register.

I think that a central registry, from your perspective, would achieve a more efficient and accurate transactional surveillance process for the marketplace. Finance ministers have committed to changes that will make information on beneficial ownership available to law enforcement, tax, and other authorities. We think that it should be extended, as it is in the U.K.'s model, to be accessible to, certainly, all reporting entities, and possibly to the general public, to meet public policy objectives. A central registry, as I said, would be of enormous benefit to securities dealers, who find it a very complicated and time-consuming process to work through the complexity of business structures, particularly private corporations.

Our other recommendations relate to facilitating the obligations of securities dealers and other reporting entities to improve the efficiency of the reporting exercise and also to relieve the compliance burden.

First, the legislation should be flexible to accommodate new technologies, such as digital identification in the verification process, and it should be sufficiently flexible to enable timely adaptation of a range of innovative technology. Facial recognition is a case in point.

Second, FINTRAC should engage in ongoing dialogue with securities dealers and other reporting entities to ensure greater transparency on FINTRAC requirements. For example, when reporting entities such as securities dealers send suspicious transaction reports to FINTRAC, we believe that FINTRAC should provide timely feedback to reporting entities, indicating which STRs happen to be suspicious, or not. In our view, that kind of an interactive process would certainly be helpful to the reporting entities that are trying to track these transactional flows by particular counterparties.

Third, interactive communication between FINTRAC and the other regulators is important in our view. Regulators, such as the self-regulatory bodies that securities dealers are responsible to, also have money-laundering regulations. It certainly would be helpful if we could have congruence or a process that could ensure that there isn't a duplication in the rule-making process. That would come about by close coordination between FINTRAC and the regulators.

Finally, the other recommendation is with regard to subsection 62(2) of the act. It provides certain exemptions from the record-keeping and verification requirements for reporting entities. What I have in mind here, in particular, are listed corporations and regulated financial institutions in Canada. In our view, there is scope to expand these exemptions to certain foreign-regulated entities that are subject to a comparable regulatory regime as in Canada. I'm thinking in particular of hedge funds and asset managers of all sorts in regimes such as the United Kingdom, where they are regulated under the FCA, or in the United States under the SEC. Again, the advantage of that is it would relieve the reporting entities of an identification burden that you could justify in this mutual-recognition process.

My understanding is that we have put forward this recommendation a number of times to Finance in the past. I think the push-back is creating precedents among some of these foreign jurisdictions, but, in our view, you can start with the U.S. and the U.K. You can include the G7, but certainly most of the transactional flows internationally or institutional flows are coming from the U.K. and the U.S. The other reason why it's important, aside from eliminating the compliance burden, is that these requirements can discourage these regulated financial institutions from transacting with dealers in the Canadian market in Canadian securities—and certainly, that's not in our public benefit. So we think that the protections are there from a money-laundering point of view and also from an investor protection point of view if a careful recognition process is in place.

With that, I'll close my remarks.

I'm happy to answer any questions on this subject matter, or anything else related to the act.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thanks very much.

We'll turn now to Transparency International Canada, and Mr. Meunier.