Evidence of meeting #154 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bank.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Grahame Johnson  Managing Director, Funds Management and Banking Department, Bank of Canada
Nicolas Marion  Chief, Capital Markets and International Affairs, Securities Policies Division, Department of Finance
Marie-Josée Lambert  Director, Crown Corporations and Currency, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Richard Wall  Managing Director, Currency, Bank of Canada
Justin Brown  Director, Financial Stability, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Léticia Villeneuve  Economist, Trade Rules, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Michèle Govier  Senior Director, Trade Rules, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Annie Moulin  Acting Director, Arctic Science Policy Integration, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Patrick Barthold  Director, Northern Governance and Partnerships Directorate, Northern Governance Branch, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Christian Sylvain  Director General, Corporate and Government Affairs, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Jeannine Ritchot  Executive Director, Regulatory Cooperation, Regulatory Affairs Secretariat, Treasury Board Secretariat
Don Parker  Director, Strategic Policy, Communications Security Establishment
Julie Lalonde-Goldenberg  Director General, Partnerships Development and Management Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
Andrew Brown  Acting Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Cara Scales  Director, Policy Analysis and Initiatives, Employment and Insurance Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Catherine McKinnon  Senior Counsel, Judicial Affairs, Courts and Tribunal Policy, Department of Justice
Anna Dekker  Counsel, Judicial Affairs, Courts and Tribunal Policy, Public Law Sector, Department of Justice
Manuel Dussault  Senior Director, Framework Policy, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Julien Brazeau  Senior Director, Framework Policy, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Jeremy Weil  Senior Project Leader, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Saskia Tolsma  Senior Economist, Sectoral Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance
David Dewar  Director, Strategic Policy & Government Affairs, Policy & Strategic Direction, Department of Western Economic Diversification
Selena Beattie  Director of Operations, Cabinet Affairs, Legislation and House Planning, Privy Council Office
Marianna Giordano  Director, CPP Policy and Legislation, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Ann Sheppard  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

9:50 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Ann Sheppard

It would be up to whoever was delegated the authority to negotiate them and to determine that.

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay. You could have one particular province deciding they don't feel this is a particularly useful tool, and just not choose to take it up and use it. Is that correct?

9:50 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Ann Sheppard

I suppose it's possible.

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Theoretically, where someone commits a certain type of fraud in one province, they would not necessarily face the same sanctions as someone else in a different province who did the same kind of act, or maybe was involved in multi-jurisdictions where you would have a level adjudication of justice, because one would use a certain tool and one wouldn't.

9:50 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Ann Sheppard

It's a discretionary tool. It applies to companies and not individuals, so there's no charter issue. That would be the argument that companies make now, that they are potentially eligible for operations under the jurisdiction of the U.K. or the U.S., but not in Canada.

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Yes, but, again, this is Canada, so I would expect when people are in Canada they're going to follow Canadian laws and not have the expectation they should get the same treatment in the United States or in Great Britain.

Mr. Chair, this Parliament passed the Magnitsky Act, specifically where we've said that we want to come down hard on those who are engaged in bribery and other types of actions abroad, and we'll see those things as here in Canada.

I would really suggest that we are probably going to need to find an alternative forum because this is a major leap. I'm not sure all Canadians, not just the opposition, are ready for such a massive departure. While there may have been a consultation process, to me it sounds like it was oriented around a certain cadre of Canadian strata, rather than a wide variety of people who might have very different ideas.

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Dusseault.

9:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Schedule 6 sets out about thirty offences. I'm sorry. I was not aware of that schedule when I asked my question earlier.

What are the sentences associated with those offences. I believe there are actually 29 of them.

9:55 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Ann Sheppard

Are you talking about the range of the financial amount or those in the schedule of offences?

9:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Schedule 6 lists all the offences from 1(a) to (z.3). Do you have any idea of what sentences are currently set out in the Criminal Code for those offences?

9:55 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Ann Sheppard

There is a range. They can range, but they can be fairly significant, such as that for foreign bribery, as was mentioned, which is a 10-year sanction, and there are unlimited fines.

Again, this is a regime that applies to companies that have been accused, and the companies have to identify individuals for prosecution for conduct flowing out of the same offence, so really the sanctions.... Imprisonment can't apply to a company that's charged. It would be subject to a fine, and a fairly large one because there is generally no upper limit.

9:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I thought that, to some extent, the board of directors or management could be held accountable for fraud or any other criminal act.

9:55 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Ann Sheppard

The company can through them, but it's the company, so the company can't be imprisoned. But you're right that obviously the actions would be committed by an individual, and the company would have an obligation to identify the individual so that individual could be prosecuted. It's not at all a way of getting individuals off the hook. One of the objectives, in fact, is to try to identify conduct more easily.

The idea behind offering an incentive to the company is that it would help detect wrongdoing.

9:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

So it's an incentive for a company that discovers this type of wrongdoing within the organization to identify the person responsible itself and bring that person to justice.

9:55 p.m.

Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Ann Sheppard

That's right. It has an obligation to make its best efforts to identify implicated individuals.

9:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

With that, we thank you, Ms. Sheppard.

Just for committee members' reference, we will meet tomorrow afternoon at 3:30 with quite a number of witnesses, and that should be our last session this week, we hope.

The meeting is adjourned.