Evidence of meeting #157 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ann Sheppard  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Bernard Butler  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Commemoration, Department of Veterans Affairs
John Moffet  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
Pierre Mercille  Director General (Legislation), Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Suzie Cadieux  Procedural Clerk

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay, then I'm sorry, Michael, but when the bells start to ring, we have to have unanimous consent to continue.

For officials, the bells ring for 30 minutes. The votes will probably take about 12 minutes. We'll be back in about 40 minutes.

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll reconvene.

For expediency tonight, we've seen how easily the last two votes were done in the House, 278 to zero and 277 to zero. It should be a smooth evening, don't you think?

Mr. McLeod, you had the floor.

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll quickly wrap up.

My point was that with whatever programs and whatever exemptions our committee recommends, it should always be taken into account that it has to be fair across the board. The farmers' exemption is fine, but it doesn't apply in the north. We don't have a purple gas program. These are the concerns I wanted to flag to committee. I think whatever exemptions are incorporated have to have mechanisms to be accountable and tracked so they're not abused.

Those are my points, Mr. Chair.

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you.

Have I missed anybody else on the speakers list?

Seeing none, on amendment NDP-9, we'll have a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 5; yeas 3 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Sorbara, you said you had another amendment.

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I think all the members have received a copy in both official languages.

We would like this amendment to ensure that fishermen and fisherwomen across this country are able to continue their pursuit and receive an exemption from the backstop for the pricing of carbon on the fuel that is used. This amendment would allow that to happen in jurisdictions where no carbon pricing regime has been put in place. We know that currently 85% of Canadians have a regime put in place by provincial jurisdiction.

Mr. Chair, would you like me to read the amendment?

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

What's the wish of the committee?

I hear the members want it read, so go ahead.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Mr. Chair, my amendment is that Bill C-74, in clause 186, be amended (a) by adding after line 22 on page 162 the following:

eligible fishing activity means the operation of an eligible fishing vessel for the purposes of fishing or a prescribed activity. (activité de pêche admissible)

(b) by adding before line 23 on page 162 the following:

eligible fishing vessel means property that is primarily used for the purposes of fishing and that is a fishing vessel or prescribed property, but does not include prescribed property. (bateau de pêche admissible)

(c) by adding after line nine on page 163 the following:

fisher means a person that carries on a fishing business with a reasonable expectation of profit. (pêcheur) fishing includes fishing for or catching shellfish, crustaceans and marine animals, but does not include an office or employment under a person engaged in the business of fishing. (pêche)

(d) by adding after line 37 on page 167 the following:

qualifying fishing fuel means a type of fuel that is gasoline, light fuel oil or a prescribed type of fuel. (combustible de pêche admissible)

(e) by replacing line 17 on page 176 with the following:

(iii.1) a fisher, if the fuel is a qualifying fishing fuel and the listed province is prescribed, or

(f) by adding after line 24 on page 188 the following:

Charge—diversion by a fisher

24.1(1) Subject to this Part, if at any time fuel is delivered in a listed province by a registered distributor in respect of that type of fuel to a particular person that is a fisher and an exemption certificate applies in respect of the delivery in accordance with section 36, the particular person must pay to Her Majesty in right of Canada a charge in respect of the fuel in the listed province in the amount determined under section 40 to the extent that, at a later time, the fuel is

(a) used by the particular person in the listed province otherwise than in eligible fishing activities; or

(b) delivered by the particular person to another person unless the other person is a registered distributor in respect of that type of fuel and an exemption certificate applies in respect of the delivery in accordance with section 36.

When charge payable

(2) The charge under subsection (1) becomes payable at the later time referred to in that subsection.

Charge not payable

(3) The charge under subsection (1) is not payable if

(a) at the later time referred to in that subsection, the particular person is not a fisher;

(b) a charge is payable under section 37 in respect of the fuel; or

(c) prescribed circumstances exist or prescribed conditions are met.

Charge—ceasing to be a fisher

(4) Subject to this Part, if at any time fuel is delivered in a listed province by a registered distributor in respect of that type of fuel to a particular person that is a fisher, if an exemption certificate applies in respect of the delivery in accordance with section 36 and if that particular person ceases, at a later time, to be a fisher, the particular person must pay to Her Majesty in right of Canada a charge in respect of the fuel and the listed province in the amount determined under section 40 to the extent that, at the later time, the fuel is held by the particular person in the listed province. The charge becomes payable at the later time.

Charge not payable

(5) The charge under subsection (4) is not payable if

(a) at the later time referred to in that subsection, the particular person is registered as a distributor in respect of that type of fuel;

(b) at the later time referred to in that subsection, the particular person is a registered emitter, but only to the extent that, at the later time, the fuel is held at, or is in transit to, a covered facility of the person;

(c) a charge is payable under section 37 in respect of the fuel; or

(d) prescribed circumstances exist or prescribed conditions are met.

(g) by adding after line 35 on page 196 the following:

(vii.1) that the person is a fisher, that the fuel is for use exclusively in the operation of an eligible fishing vessel and that all or substantially all of the fuel is for use in the course of eligible fishing activities, or

(h) by adding after line 8 on page 197 the following:

Exception—fisher (1.1) Despite subsection (1), if fuel is delivered to a fisher in a listed province that is not prescribed for the purposes of subparagraph 17(2)(a)(iii.1), an exemption certificate does not apply in respect of the delivery.

(i) by adding after line 33 on page 198 the following:

(d) the person is a fisher, the fuel is a qualifying fishing fuel, and an exemption certificate applies in respect of the delivery in accordance with section 36.

(j) by adding after line 34 on page 211 the following:

(iii.1) to a fisher if the fuel is a qualifying fishing fuel,

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

So moved, and it is in order.

Mr. Albas.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I'd like to ask the officials, with regard to this amendment, whether there would be an impact on revenues collected by the crown.

7:20 p.m.

Director General (Legislation), Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Pierre Mercille

This amendment is essentially relieving in nature.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

So there would be less revenue to the crown, as was envisioned in Bill C-74 in its original text. Is that correct?

7:20 p.m.

Director General (Legislation), Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Mr. Chair, perhaps I could get some guidance from you and the clerk, because it's my understanding that when you have an amendment that could cause the treasury to collect less, that would require a royal recommendation. Usually, these kinds of provisions would be done by a minister. If it does require a royal recommendation, then it's my view that you should rule it inadmissible.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

The recommendation is not necessary if you spend less and not get more.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay, so because you're not collecting as much tax...?

I'm sorry, but usually a royal recommendation is required anytime there is an extra cost to the crown. This would foresee there being a reduction in revenues, and that's the purview of....

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I think I would return this to Mr. Moffet.

If I could get into the revenue neutrality of this proposal, we would be in the same place. Is that correct? That's the purpose.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

We don't know if it's revenue neutral. We're talking about the collection of taxes.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Let me try this another way.

If there is less money coming into the treasury, you don't need a royal recommendation.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Is there any further discussion?

Mr. Dusseault.

7:20 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I would like to thank the member who moved this amendment. This is certainly a very modest way of taking credit for half the text. Indeed, the text of this amendment is almost identical to that of the amendment I proposed, but it contains slightly more precise terms and gives more details about certain possible cases, for example when fishers cease their activities.

So I will support this amendment. I am glad the government realized its mistake and is prepared to correct it today during clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. I am glad to see that the government is able to recognize its mistakes.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Sorbara.

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Dusseault.

Where I grew up, we obviously care about fishermen or fisherwomen across Canada and we fight for them, and I'm glad to see that we can come to a resolution to make sure that they're exempted from the backstop.

I hope my colleagues on the other side will stand up and ensure that they also vote with us to ensure that fishermen and fisherwomen from B.C. to Newfoundland and Atlantic Canada and other areas of the country also are exempted from the pricing of carbon backstop.

I think it's a good day for our parliamentary system and for our committee.