Evidence of meeting #163 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Annette Ryan  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Erin O'Toole  Durham, CPC
Ian Wright  Director, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Department of Finance
Maxime Beaupré  Director, Financial Crimes Policy, Department of Finance

1 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I'm fine with just responding to this approach.

Go ahead.

1 p.m.

Annette Ryan Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

If I may, Minister, the registry does not yet exist. The agreement among ministers would have corporations hold beneficial ownership as per changes to federal and provincial/territorial corporate statutes, and we will continue the discussions in terms of the merits of different types of registries.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

In such a registry, would the information be made available to the CRA? It's a very simple question.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Well, as I think you just heard, that's not currently something that's happened. We are going to continue our discussions with the provinces to make sure the information is available in a way that will allow us to have the desired impact.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Well, you're talking about dealing with tax evasion, Minister. You're talking about being able to deal with these things. It's a pretty simple question. Why would you have a federal registry for beneficial ownership if it wasn't available to the CRA?

1 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I don't think we want to get ahead of ourselves. Clearly—

1 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

—being collaborative with the provinces means that we actually have to work with them to get to the conclusions.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Well, we already collect taxes from many provinces, but we'll just keep going on, then.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Let the minister finish his answer first.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Well, he—

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

No. You'll have time.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

The background to this decision is obviously to make sure we have the kind of information we require in order to effectively govern our laws. That means governing our tax laws, which means the CRA is likely to be involved. However, we want to do this in collaboration with the provinces and get to the answer appropriately.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay. Well, again, Minister, I'd also like you to keep in mind that not only would CRA have that access so that it could deal with some of the tax evasion you're dealing with here, and the provinces obviously want to work on that, but also I think it would help with our regime here in Ottawa. Obviously we all submit to the Ethics Commissioner information about our assets and whatnot, and you might find it easier for public office holders to let the Ethics Commissioner know all of their assets so that nothing is overlooked. I would hope you would consider that for further public office holders.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Is there no further response there, Minister?

1 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

No, I don't think there was a question.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Dusseault.

1 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today, Mr. Minister.

I would like to go back to the beneficial ownership as well as to the discussion that you have had with the provinces, which led to an agreement to at least make company information accessible, at the request of the authorities.

Are you discussing future measures?

In its discussions with the provinces, does the federal government support a public registry?

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

As you know, we are currently working with the provinces to make sure that we have the information we need. In our opinion, that objective is crucial. About 2½ years ago, I began to work with the provinces to find a solution. About 7% of companies are federal, meaning that the others are registered in the provinces. That is why it is necessary to work with the provinces to find a solution.

We do not yet know exactly how that will be considered. Some people feel that a public registry is necessary, while others feel that it is possible to achieve our objectives and to improve the situation by using methods that are slightly different from those in other countries. Together with the provinces, we are in the process of considering the approach we will use.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

When you have discussions with the provinces, are you there just to listen?

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I will consult your committee’s report and consider your advice. We will continue the discussions in order to find a solution that works.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

In addition, and closely related, the structures are more and more complex. In fact, as you have pointed out yourself, companies are structured so as to connect to companies all around the world.

What are you doing to make sure that there is a registry of, or of some form of access to, the beneficiary ownership in foreign companies?

I am afraid that the efforts Canada is making are somewhat in vain. The structures are now using foreign companies that are not subject to the same rules of beneficiary ownership. I am afraid that, in Canada, the registry will basically be useless. Dishonest people will resort to complex structures designed to conceal the beneficiary ownership.

How can we arrange for all countries to come together to jointly use a registry of beneficiary ownership so that the dishonest people can be prevented from using structures overseas?

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

It is difficult to find a way of improving our situation. We have been working with other OECD countries to make sure that agreements can improve the situation.

As you know, we have done two significant things in the last two years: we have adopted the common reporting standard, which gives us access to information in other countries, and we have signed the base erosion and profit shifting agreement to ensure that countries cannot find places where taxes are very low and where nothing will be taken from their profits.

Ms. Ryan, do you have anything to add?

1:05 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Annette Ryan

We are also working with our partners in the financial action task force on money laundering, or FATF, where the goal is also to combat money laundering.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You may have a short question.