Finance Committee on Oct. 4th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much.

From the MDA space missions group, we have the President, Mr. Greenley, and Ms. Holly Johnson, Business Manager. Welcome.

[Mike Greenley, President, MDA Space Missions Group]

Thank you.

As mentioned, I'm Mike Greenley. I'm group president of MDA. MDA is Canada's space company. We have about 2,000 employees across the country in five sites. I'm also representing several hundred other Canadian companies today that are engaged in Canada's space industry.

I'd just like to speak for a few minutes about our role in space, involving projects around space robotics. We have an updated submission, from what we had done before. We'll hand that out quickly, so you have a copy of it.

As I talk about this, my colleagues and I across the country would like the committee to consider a time in space 12 years from now. There will be a new space station operating in orbit around the moon. On that space station will be the third generation of Canadarm.

That's the project that we're talking about today.

If we imagine the next generation of Canadarm space robotics on this new space station, there would two components—a large robotic arm that would be used to assemble the space station over the next seven years, and then the small dextrous arm that would support robotic operations helping astronauts. This small arm would also be able to crawl inside the space station and maintain and operate it during times when there are no astronauts on the space station.

Today, as you know, Canada has robotics on the current International Space Station that is in orbit around the earth, about 400 kilometres away. This next generation space station that'll be operating a decade from now will be 400,000 kilometres away in orbit around the moon. This next generation of robotics, as a result, will be absolutely the most advanced robotics in the world with an extensive amount of artificial intelligence-based control systems and operating algorithms in it, leveraging the AI community from Waterloo through to Montreal and across the country.

Canada is expected to, and has been asked to, contribute the robotics to this next generation space station. If we imagine this world 12 years from now, when this is all operational, it will have been operating for five years. The international community wants to launch the next space station in 2024 and have it operational in 2025.

During this period of time over the next few years, this project will have generated a little over 45,000 jobs, will have engaged about 500 companies across the country and will have caused about $3 billion of economic activity here in Canada as a result of the project. Based on comparisons to past space projects in Canada, it will have most likely generated about $2 billion dollars over the next decade in additional spinoff exports on terrestrial applications of robotics here on earth, in addition to commercial robotics that will be used in low-earth orbit around the earth, doing in-orbit servicing, space mining, space manufacturing, in addition to—with the privatization of the operation of the current International Space Station—putting robotics on that. We have about $3 billion of economic activity from this project and about $2 billion of additional follow-on exports.

To make all of this happen, budget 2019—this budget that we're discussing—and decisions by government in 2018 have to be made. The Government of Canada needs to recognize space as a national strategic asset, based on the 50 years of experience we've had. It needs to polish a long-term space plan for Canada, and this next budget must make a commitment for Canada to contribute the AI-based robotics to the next space station, the lunar gateway. That is a $1 billion to $2 billion commitment. NASA and the international community need to see that Canada has made that commitment so that Canada can continue its leading role in the provision of space robotics to the international community.

It must be in this budget. If it's not in this budget, then it will fade away as an opportunity. Other countries have published their space ambitions. The United Kingdom wants to be in the top 10% of the global space market by the year 2030, during this same period of time. Countries as small as Luxembourg have committed hundreds of millions of dollars to invest in space exploration and expansion in their sectors. The United States, Germany and Japan all want to put robotics on the next space station, but that space is reserved for Canada, based on our 30 years of experience providing space robotics, thus far.

Ipsos conducted polling this spring to ask Canadians what they think about this topic, and 80% of Canadians are supportive of developing the country's space sector and think it's a good decision to increase the amount of investment in space for this next generation of activity. Some 90% of Canadians agree that maintaining leadership in space robotics—especially the Canadarm—is good for our country, and important. As well, 85% of Canadians would like to see Canada maintain this role in a new lunar mission.

We have significant voting power and interest from Canadians, indicated by Ipsos, in this topic. Conversely, 85% of Canadians expressed concern that Canada might lose its position that it has established in the space sector over the last 50 years by not committing. There are a lot of votes to be lost at the same time.

Our community is asking us to make this commitment to provide AI-based space robotics to the next generation space station called the lunar gateway, and to not let go of our position. If we let go, other countries will take it. We will lose the position that we have established over 60 years. We will lose our position in AI-based robotics where we can be the world leaders moving forward, and we will lose the opportunity to continue our leadership role in the international space community, which gets us all of our astronaut missions as well.

Thank you. That's our submission.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Mr. Greenley.

Next up is Queen's University, Mr. Fraser, vice-principal, university relations.

[Michael Fraser, Vice-Principal, University Relations, Queen's University]

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee.

I want to start off by thanking you for the opportunity to present as part of the 2019 budget consultations.

The post-secondary sector has appreciated the support of successive governments. We hope our recommendations will make the case for continuing this legacy in research and innovation and in talent.

I also want to express Queen's appreciation for the government's investment of $31 million to the post-secondary institutions strategic investment fund. This investment supported the construction of the Queen's innovation and wellness centre and the revitalization of our research facilities.

Universities support economic growth in many ways: through research, by supporting regional economic innovation and entrepreneurship, and by preparing students for success. Our recommendations for budget 2019 support these aims. With an undergraduate entrance average of 89%, Queen's attracts high-quality students from across Canada and around the world. Each of your ridings likely has a tie to Queen's, be it through current students, faculty or alumni.

From their first day on campus our students find themselves in a learning environment that challenges and supports them in equal measure. It's because of this approach that the Queen's undergraduate graduation rate of 86%, and graduate completion rates of over 90% in master's and Ph.D. programs exceed national averages. Queen's also has strong post-graduate employment figures with 90% of our graduates employed within six months, and an average income five years after graduation of $79,000, $8,000 higher than the national average.

This committee has already heard from other associations and institutions in this sector such as the U15 and Universities Canada, with whom we share some recommendations. Queen's echoes the U15's call to expand undergraduate research awards programs across the tri-council agencies, creating thousands of research opportunities for undergraduate students. We also support their proposal to invest $140 million annually by 2022 to increase the number of graduate and post-doctoral scholarships. Canada currently ranks 26th in the OECD in the proportion of population with a graduate education. To remain globally competitive, addressing the highly qualified personnel deficit must be a priority.

As well, expanding these programs will help more students, particularly indigenous students, women and students from equity-seeking groups, to access research and skills development opportunities. To maximize Canada's potential, we must ensure that the future economic growth is inclusive of all Canadians. These proposed investments will help achieve that aim.

For an example of the positive impact of undergraduate and graduate research experience, one need only to look at the words of Queen's professor emeritus in 2015, Nobel laureate Dr. Art McDonald. In lectures around the world, Dr. McDonald has proudly spoken of the hundreds of students and post-doctoral researchers who worked on the SNOLAB experiment in Sudbury, many of whom are employed in fields outside academia in finance and in industrial research across the country and around the world. However, their experiences in research provided an opportunity to hone both the technical and critical thinking skills that have allowed them success in those chosen fields.

Research that takes place on university campuses helps reshape our understanding of the world we live in, while advancing new technology and medical treatments that will improve countless lives. Two of Queen's research partnerships I would like to highlight are the Canadian Cancer Trials Group, or CCTG; and the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, or CIMVHR. I understand you'll hear from CIMVHR later today, and I encourage the government to support their important work. CCTG, a national research co-operative that runs clinical trials to test anti-cancer and supportive therapies, headquartered at Queen's, has supported over 500 trials in over 40 countries aimed at improving survival rates and quality of life. CCTG is also leading the development of the Canadian personalized health care innovation network, which will connect researchers nationwide to clinical data that guides the development of new cancer therapies.

Queen's has long been a leader among Canadian universities in commercializing technologies and IP emerging from research. At Queen's, our research discoveries have led to more than 500 patents and over 50 spinoff companies, attracting outside investments in excess of $1.4 billion. Queen's is at the centre of an emerging eastern Ontario innovation ecosystem that is breathing new life into a region that has too often been challenged to foster economic growth in the past. Queen's and its partners, supported by the former Canada accelerator and incubator program, or CAIP, have provided more than 14,500 hours of mentoring and services to over 500 entrepreneurs and start-ups in eastern Ontario.

These companies have attracted more than $200 million in investments and created hundreds of jobs in the region. With the conclusion of CAIP, this momentum is at risk. We would encourage the government to make a clear commitment to innovation and regional economic development so that partnerships such as ours can continue to support entrepreneurs who bring new jobs and opportunities to our community.

Finally, Queen's strongly supports the Business/Higher Education Roundtable proposal for a national work-integrated learning strategy. Nearly half of Queen's undergraduate students participate in some form of work-integrated learning, such as internships, co-op or clinical placement. A national strategy would strengthen existing institutional and industry efforts, while extending experimental learning opportunities for all Canadian students.

Thank you.

I look forward to any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser.

With the Women's Brain Health Initiative, we have Ms. Posluns, Founder and President, and Mr. Picov. I'm not sure if I have that right or not.

Go ahead.

[Barry Picov, Funder, Women's Brain Health Initiative]

Thank you.

I'm Barry Picov. I'm here today representing my family's personal and financial interest in effectively combatting brain aging diseases. As a businessman from a five-generation business family right here in the region of Durham, I believe that the cost to Canadians will be far greater if we remain reactionary than if we are proactive and prepared.

I wanted to give you an analogy that I've thought about for many years in regard to brain aging diseases and dementia, and that is the tsunami warning. That's truly what I believe is happening here. The bells go off, the earthquake happens, the warning signs happen, things are moving, the wave is coming and we're still sitting on the beach. If there's anything you can take from me, that's something I want you all to remember. Dementia and brain aging diseases are critical to look after.

I would like to introduce to you the founder and president of the Women's Brain Health Initiative, my good friend, Lynn Posluns. My family and I strongly believe that she, the board of directors and this charitable organization can really improve the lives of Canadians, so much so that we gave $500,000 of our hard-earned money to the Women's Brain Health Initiative to do just that.

Thank you.

Lynn.

[Lynn Posluns, Founder and President, Women's Brain Health Initiative]

Thank you, Barry.

Good morning.

Brain disorders like Alzheimer's are highly disabling and chronic, placing an enormous burden on those affected, their caregivers, their social environment, health care systems and society in general. Brain ill health leads to enormous human suffering and restricts the independence of those living with a brain aging disorder, not least as a result of disability and the need for special care. Without significant decisions and investments, the burden of brain aging diseases will become unbearable. It is likely to lead to a further increase in suffering of those affected as well as threatening the sustainability of our health and social care systems.

No long-term effective solutions exist today. As our population is aging and mortality rates from Alzheimer's keep increasing, it's no wonder Alzheimer's has now moved ahead of cancer as the most feared disease. Yet annual research funding of Alzheimer's and related dementias continues to significantly lag behind other disease states.

Canada currently spends close to $50 million per year on dementia research. Although Canadian researchers are doing great work both nationally and on the international front, dementia research in Canada is severely underfunded.

The 2016 Senate report, “Dementia in Canada: A National Strategy for Dementia-Friendly Communities”, recommends investment in dementia research equal to 1% of annual care by the Alzheimer Society of Canada. This would translate to approximately $100 million per year in investment in dementia research.

More recently, Alzheimer's Disease International released its “World Alzheimer Report 2018”, and once again it proclaims that 1% of the societal cost of dementia should be devoted to funding research. Ideally, this additional funding should go to our partner, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, to be targeted for the Canadian Consortium on Neurodegeneration in Aging, focused around the topics of quality of life, secondary prevention and primary prevention.

That research must take sex and gender—that is, biological and social influences—into account. Why? Because dementia discriminates. In Canada, almost 70% of Alzheimer's sufferers are women. Women succumb faster and women also end up worse off than men. If that weren't bad enough, women are two and a half times more likely to be providing care for somebody else with a brain-aging disorder. But historically, research has focused on men. That's why organizations like Women's Brain Health Initiative matter. We not only actively advocate for scientists to take sex and gender into account. We help fund that research, such as creating and supporting the world's first-ever research chair in women's brain health in aging, awarded to Dr. Gillian Einstein at the University of Toronto, and funding the sex and gender cross-cutting team at the Canadian Consortium on Neurodegeneration in Aging.

While more funding into research is vital to finding answers for our daughters and granddaughters, Women's Brain Health Initiative also educates the public, especially young women, on what they can do to avoid or delay the progression of mind-robbing diseases like Alzheimer's. Why? Because we now know that by the time symptoms of Alzheimer's occur, it is likely that the damage to the brain has happened 20 to 25 years prior.

In a recent report from the esteemed Lancet Commission out of the U.K., along with other corroborating studies, one-third of all cases of dementia can be avoided by modifying your lifestyle choices, choices that include social, mental and physical activity; adequate sleep; stress reduction; and healthy eating. The earlier you engage in healthy lifestyle choices that you can control, the stronger the protective effect will be.

Women's Brain Health Initiative has created an effective vehicle for disseminating these evidence-based findings through our “Mind over Matter" publications, the last five editions co-funded by Brain Canada. With additional support we can reach more and teach more. Why? Because Women's Brain Health Initiative is the only organization that is proactive to brain-aging diseases. It is determined to get in front of the financial tsunami facing Canadians, if left unchecked, by providing the public with the information they need to stave off life-changing, debilitating diseases that rob people of their memories, personalities and ultimately their loved ones.

Getting people to change behaviour is not an easy task—just look at the number of people who still smoke—but knowledge is a great enabler and people have more control than they realize. Increasing funding for Canadian research that must be sex- and gender-sensitive is necessary to find effective solutions for everyone. Until we get the answers we desperately seek, getting the evidence-based ways of safeguarding our own cognitive health into the hands of the public in ways that encourage positive behaviour modification is critical to preventing and delaying brain-aging diseases. If we don't, Alzheimer's will become the emotional, social and financial sinkhole of the 21st century.

We have a collective responsibility towards future generations for our ability to face and reverse the challenges posed by brain-aging disorders and to improve the lives of all Canadians: those at risk, those affected by or living with these diseases, and the youth it behooves us to protect. Women are half of our workforce and are our primary caregivers. Our good health drives our families, our community and our economy. We can help, and hope that you'll join us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both, very much.

We'll start with the first three MPs for seven-minute rounds.

Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for the presentations. As you just heard, I have seven minutes. I can't ask every organization questions that I would want to put forward, but I will begin with the Eastern Ontario Wardens' Caucus.

I'm highly interested in this issue of rural broadband and connectivity. I'm an urban member of Parliament, so you might ask why, exactly, someone from London is so interested. Quite frankly, it's an economic issue. It really speaks to the economic vitality of our country, or lack of vitality if we don't get it done.

In London, we have a number of small communities that lack that type of connectivity. We have started, though, as you might know, through the Western Ontario Wardens' Caucus, the SWIFT network, which in process. It's a very exciting initiative that our government was proud to contribute funding towards. You mentioned EORN. As well, there are a number of other municipalities that have, on their own, really spearheaded efforts.

I put this question to you because municipalities have a really unique role in all of this and an important role to play. The big Internet service providers really lack incentives, because obviously it's very costly to build networks in rural communities. Yours is an example. SWIFT is now an example in the southwestern region.

I mentioned other municipalities. To be specific, Stratford in 1990 started its own Internet service, and that continues. For $20 a month in Coquitlam, you can have high-speed Internet through a network that was started and is now run by the city, called the Coquitlam Optical Network Corporation.

I'll give you a third example. You're probably aware of these examples, but it's important to put them on the record.

Olds, Alberta, a small town of 8,500 people, had a problem. That problem was all too common. They couldn't find an Internet service provider to serve their people. Now, because they invested as a municipality, they have every home and business connected to a fibre optic network that is community-owned. Those are really impressive results with all sorts of potential.

We have heard testimony throughout the week from organizations pointing to the role that municipalities have to play in spearheading broadband connectivity. I wonder if you can speak to that based on your experience with the Eastern Ontario Regional Network.

[Robin Jones]

We're very familiar with some of the organizations, in particular with SWIFT. EORN was supporting their development. Of course, some of the examples you've given are in more of an urban setting. This is across eastern Ontario.

I'd like Mr. Pine to draw on our experience of how we built the first project, so that we can connect the dots here.

[Jim Pine]

Thanks very much. It's a great question.

I really appreciate your sensitivity to the needs we face and the role that municipalities play. In fact, we built EORN's $175-million first project because, when we started, of the 750,000 rural residents in eastern Ontario, 300,000 were on dial-up, so they couldn't get any type of connectivity. In the absence of provincial or federal strategies to deal with this, it fell to the counties across eastern Ontario to try to find a way to connect our citizens and our businesses. That's how that first project got its genesis.

We see it every day. We get businesses that call us every day, saying they need better connectivity in order to operate their business. We have residents who call us and say they need to be able to connect so that their kids can do some online studying.

It's a real problem in eastern Ontario, and it's a problem across the country. There needs to be a national strategy, for sure, and a lot more investment. We've taken an area that's the same size as the province of Nova Scotia—that's eastern Ontario—and are trying to do our best to fix the connectivity issues.

Our next project is around mobile broadband and cellular, so it has driven it.

Telecom companies won't go where there's market failure. That's why governments have to be involved. That's the only time we're involved as local governments, when there isn't a business case for the private sector to do it on their own.

We've worked with them over the last 10 years, and that is still true. There are areas where they just will not go because they can't get a return for their shareholders. That's why government needs to be involved.

We liken it to the situation where people needed electricity or telephone service. Government got involved because every Canadian should have that same ability to connect or to turn the lights on. It's the same thing with connectivity.

[Peter Fragiskatos]

It's about critical infrastructure. If we talk about the economic prosperity of the country, we can't help but talk about broadband connectivity for everyone. We can't have haves and have-nots on this critical issue, quite frankly.

Ms. Jones, for the examples I cited, I suppose Stratford could be considered urban, but Olds, Alberta, has 8,500 people. The region of Waterloo, just down the road from me in London, is now investing in the SWIFT network as a way of connecting very small towns and villages. I used the example of SWIFT before. I think certainly when it comes to.... The federal government contributed money. The then provincial government contributed significant funds. Between the two governments it was about $180 million. I'm going on memory here.

Municipalities have a critical role to play as well. I think the point needs to be made that the federal government certainly has to be at the table with these things, and is, but we need continuing municipal support. The Eastern Ontario Wardens' Caucus, your initiative, is a great example of what is possible as we continue to grapple with this challenge in the country.

I think, Mr. Chair, I've exhausted my seven minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I think you have.

Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank all of you for your presentations. I'm going to ask Juvenile Diabetes to comment on a few things.

First of all, thank you for raising the issue of those who had their disability tax credit revoked or denied in 2017 as a result of the letter that was sent in May of 2017. We heard quite a bit of testimony at this committee. I know that you followed the proceedings when both the minister and department officials told the committee that nothing had changed and there was no change to the eligibility requirement, yet we know what happened.

You characterized the 941 cases where no answer has been given by the agency as to the status of their DTC application. You called it poor customer service. Maybe more to the point, it's a broken promise because later at committee and on the floor of the House of Commons, we were told that in each case an answer would be given.

Could you give us a little more on the importance of that credit? It's not just the tax credit itself. The tax credit is the gateway to a number of other supports, including the RDSP, and other income supports for disabled Canadians. This is not just a matter of getting a small refund based on that credit. There are enormous consequences for a disabled family with a type 1 diabetic or any disabled Canadian, whether it's autism or any of a number of disorders. Can you talk about the credit and its importance as a gateway?

[Dave Prowten]

Type 1 diabetes and other chronic conditions are very difficult to deal with and this whole program was set up to support people. As a gateway, we're trying to recommend clearing the hurdles, making it as easy as possible for people to apply and be accepted, on the assumption that everything is legitimate; we understand that.

The risk of having something taken away like the RDSP, we find astonishing. When you turn 18, your family's condition doesn't change, so we would like some of them to be permanently fixed and acknowledged. I think one of the great challenges is that people have to apply over and over again. They have to go to their doctor. The doctors don't get reimbursed, so getting these credits for the first time is a hurdle and then having to go through it over and over again is difficult.

To your point about a gateway, if you can't get through the door, you're stuck. Diabetes can cost up to $15,000 a year to manage. The $1,500 for the DTC is important but it bothers people when their chronic disease is not acknowledged.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

There is a private member's bill that has been tabled and matches part of your first recommendation. I think that having the government adopt your first recommendation would be great, but there will be another crack at this if that bill gets to the floor.

Part of that also addresses your issue of not having to reapply. If you have a chronic life condition, you ought not to have to burden your own physician on an annual basis to reconfirm that you still suffer from a permanent condition. Would you agree and add this to your recommendation?

[Patrick Tohill, Director, Government Relations, Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation Canada]

We're very aware of and grateful to Mr. Kmiec for putting forward his bill. It attempts to take on a couple of the recommendations that we have been making and that we're continuing to make, specifically around CARP calculation and not losing that status. I think it's interesting that, as one of our colleagues from Diabetes Canada mentioned in a previous hearing, this is the only area in the tax code where people can't self-report. You've set up this arcane process that requires a medical practitioner to report, and they find the forms confusing.

I was just reading a redacted letter the other day, and it was about a mental health issue. The doctor was trying to explain to the CRA that his patient is basically restricted in the activities of daily living about four or five days a week, but it's variable because how her disease affects her from week to week changes. He finds a simple yes or no answer in a check box on the form difficult to tick off, so he wrote a letter to provide some extra clarity.

It's really confusing for doctors dealing with type 1 diabetes to assess a person's daily regimen when they don't actually have full sight of what that person is doing throughout the day or throughout the week. They see them every couple of months. If it's an endocrinologist, they might see them every six months. We should be moving to a better system, perhaps where there is self-reporting, or where we're at least going to take the medical practitioner's word on whether a person qualifies.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'll take it as quickly as I can.

I'd like to ask Ms. Carroll a question.

I thank you for giving us some of these statistics and information on labour force participation. We know that being able to participate in the workforce is an incredibly fulfilling activity, and for those who are not able, there are consequences for society, which you've mentioned.

One of the barriers to employment participation for a variety of disabled Canadians is the prospect of losing existing supports, in the sense that once someone has employment income, they may lose medical or prescription benefits. Thus, even though they are able to take a job, and even though a job is available, they cannot take a job because it would cost them more to take a job than to remain outside of the workforce. The opportunity act was another private member's bill that tried to address this.

Can you comment on some of these barriers to employment that exist for disabled Canadians?

[Cynthia Carroll]

That is definitely a real barrier for many autistic job seekers, as well as job seekers with intellectual disabilities. There is a risk there. As you're moving into the workforce, you want to ensure that you don't lose some of the very valuable resources you've achieved.

We talk a lot about transformation and transition as you move towards the labour market, to ensure that it's a win-win for everyone, specifically for the person who may have been disengaged from the labour market for a long time and has been either underemployed or unemployed. We always talk about looking at it from a wrap-around perspective, to make sure that as we're moving people to be productive and live full lives, they're not being penalized for that.

Those are all components we look at with RWA as well, as people are moving towards the workplace. Because this project was initially in every province and territory, we've been able to map out all the policy gaps, challenges and barriers that adults with autism and intellectual disabilities face as they move towards the workforce. That has actually started very rich conversations at both the provincial and federal levels, which is another reason we're really encouraging the federal government to support a phase two. Those conversations can't be lost.

We just started breaking down these silos and looking at some pretty significant policy shifts in the provinces and territories around this issue. We're really hoping we'll have an opportunity to continue those conversations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you all.

Mr. Julian, you have seven minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our witnesses. Those were uniformly terrific presentations.

I'll start with Ms. Carr and Ms. Carroll.

Thank you for your terrific work on behalf of all Canadians. Prior to being elected to Parliament, I ran the Western Institute for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing. We put in place, in British Columbia, a B.C. disability employment network, which included a spectrum of folks with physical disabilities through to intellectual disabilities.

What we found most remarkable—and you touched on it in your presentation—was the fact that once hired, those new employees stayed with businesses forever. Part of the advantage to the business sector was the fact that those employees were long-term employees. Particularly for a lot of businesses that had high turnover rates, it made a fundamental difference.

If you could, I'd like you to comment on that advantage. We're talking about competitiveness in the Canadian economy, and having high retention rates is actually a fundamental element of competitiveness for Canadian businesses. Could you comment on the importance of that? This is a modest investment you're asking for, but one that has huge ramifications, not only for the new employees but also for the businesses.

[Krista Carr]

Thank you very much for the question.

You're absolutely right. There's no question. Retention rates of 93% are pretty high, and it's non-wage-subsidized real work, real-pay jobs. What we've been able to demonstrate through this project is that the individuals who are trying to get into the labour market make excellent employees. In the information packages we've passed out, we've shown a number of businesses that have hired over and over again through RWA, not just one time. They've hired more and more employees through Ready, Willing and Able because those employees have proven to be excellent employees, and also to increase the employer's competitive advantage because of the fact that turnover and retraining costs a lot of money. These things cost money to the system.

The other thing about this is the 20% employment rate. You're not going to change it in three years. It's going to take investment over a sustained period of time to be able to really change the game on that. We've just really begun and had excellent, excellent success.

Going back to your retention rate, the external evaluation we had for this program stated that, by far and away, this was the most successful one they had ever evaluated, and the evaluators had evaluated a number of federal employment initiatives over the years

[Cynthia Carroll]

I just want to add to that as well.

I am the chair of the Canadian Autism Spectrum Disorders Alliance, which is CASDA, but I always say my day job is as the executive director of Autism Nova Scotia. I've actually had the pleasure of talking and working with a lot of these employers. They actually have told me that, on average, it costs them between $7,500 and $10,000 to retrain one new employee. One of the benefits that they really valued about RWA is that it was coordinated across the country, so if they did business in more than one province, it really created this accessible and equitable opportunity for employers. But it also cut down on that turnover cost.

You're right. Employers are looking for what they call the days of the baby boomers, where you go in and you stay with a job for 30 years. We're not seeing that trend for lots of reasons now, but they are seeing that with employees through inclusive hiring. It really, truly is an innovation that is making Canada competitive again.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to move on to Mr. Prowten and Mr. Tohill.

I am shocked, as I think all the committee members are, to find that we're still talking about a thousand people who are having RDSPs ripped away from them. I don't think it will end there. I think when we get back to Ottawa, we will want to convene Canada Revenue Agency back to the committee so that they can defend this decision.

The biggest impact, of course, is for folks who have scrimped and saved to get the matching federal grants. By the RDSP being clawed back or taken away from them, all of the sacrifices that they've made for their child with a disability are eliminated. This has long-term repercussions.

I would like to speak in support, of course, of the changes you're proposing. It's really cruel, isn't it, that Canada Revenue Agency is clawing back monies that people have scrimped and saved to try to get matched through the RDSP.

[Dave Prowten]

Pat was in a meeting with the CRA very recently where we encouraged them to communicate with the 941 people, just as a customer service element. We sent them a letter to that effect, because at the end of the day, we're trying to navigate the system because those 941 people can't get through the gateway. They're at risk of losing the RDSP, etc.

We would agree with you that there are some simple solutions here that could be handled, and that's part of our challenge and frustration, to be perfectly honest. It's a big system and we're a relatively small organization, and we're just trying to make some simple changes here.