Finance Committee on Oct. 18th, 2018

[Dr. Annette Trimbee]

It's absolutely critical, and we found that programs for youth work best if family is involved, and if there is a cultural component. I couldn't agree with you more. To me, success is, for an indigenous student, to come to our university and feel that they have maintained their identity, that they haven't given up anything with respect to their family and their sense of values. You are absolutely right. They do have to think about living in two worlds.

The other experience we often have in our university is indigenous youth will show up and they will tell me, “Annette, I know that I am from a Métis background, but until I came here, I didn't know enough about that and I wasn't proud. Now I'm learning about my culture.” It's the same with a lot of urban first nation students as well, that they have lost that cultural component. Ironically, in our universities, our colonial institutions, they are being reintroduced in part because we are bringing in elders and other representatives of their communities.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

My next question is for the Canadian Network of Northern Research Operators.

I smiled when you said working in -40° and complete darkness. That's the environment I grew up in. I'm really impressed by the amount of research that is happening. I think there's still so much more that has to be done.

As I travel through my riding, I learn so much in this position. I heard some people talking in one of my coastal communities about hearing thunder for the first time. It confused me because I thought that everybody knew about thunder, but in some of these communities there was no thunder, no thunderstorms, until climate change started happening. This past winter when I was travelling through one of my communities, they were talking about receding ice, and now they're starting to see killer whales, so they can't get the beluga whales, which they need for the muktuk. They can't get it anymore. Many things are changing.

You study many things in your research. One of the things that is quite concerning is the artifacts that are disappearing. I'm just wondering if you do any work in that area.

[Dr. LeeAnn Fishback]

There are groups across our stations who do work in archeological investigations.

I think one of the important things is working with communities and making Arctic research a viable choice for students, for senior researchers who are visiting the community, but also for local people who are in those communities, and making it a partnership. That's one thing at CNNRO we strive to do, to partner and make research properly resourced, not just for people coming from the south, but also for communities, so they have the capacity to keep those resources or artifacts in their own communities. It's also—you mentioned climate change—to strengthen Canada's capacity to engage in research across our vast Arctic region, and to empower the people who live in the communities, and even in places where there aren't communities to ensure Canada's competitiveness in the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you. We're over time.

Before I go to Mr. Kelly, Ms. Trimbee, on Mr. McLeod's questioning, you talked a fair bit about the programs for indigenous people, but in your earlier submission, you talked about the patchwork of programs. I think we see that in universities, colleges, skills training, provincial governments, federal government, indigenous groups, you name it, there's all kinds of programming out there. How can we restructure that somewhat so that there's more focus and maybe better utilization of the money that is spent by all levels of everything?

When you're dealing with indigenous issues, there are probably, as there is in agriculture, several departments putting money out there, but how do we focus it?

[Dr. Annette Trimbee]

I think part of it is how programs are designed. I remember in my early days as a bureaucrat I moved to health and wellness and I had this health innovation fund, and it funded pilots. Then if the pilots were successful, the health authorities were to incorporate them into their funding.

I always thought it would be better to do it the other way around. The other way around would be to actually recognize when innovation happens and when the institutions are getting outcomes that are desirable. It's another approach to thinking about how you design programs and reward those institutions that are making progress.

The issue is that there are a lot of excellent examples of incredibly successful programs to attract indigenous youth to imagine a future in university. There are a lot of examples of good things happening in institutions, but they're not scalable and they're not sustainable because often the money is one shot.

I mentioned that we had the Wii Chiiwaakanak Learning Centre, and that is right behind the University of Winnipeg, on Ellice Avenue, in one of the statistically lowest socio-economic areas.

Our staff spend all of their time looking for pots of money and applying for one-time grants. They'll hire somebody, start a language program, and it will be oversubscribed, and then the next year there is no money.

Think through the design long term and reward innovators.

Again, I'm not asking for the peanut butter approach where everybody gets their two cents, but I think sometimes you need to make bigger bets.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

There's lots of interesting information.

May I start, first of all, with Ms. Fishback and the north.

Besides your specific ask on funding for the research operations that you undertake, are there other things that the federal government could be doing that would help facilitate your work?

I ask this having already heard testimony while we were in Whitehorse, and indeed last year when we were in Yellowknife. There are real deficiencies in basic infrastructure in the north. We've heard about these kinds of things many times—inadequate roads, or airports that have not been upgraded or kept up to date or don't exist at all, and port facilities.

To what extent would basic public infrastructure help with the work you do in the north?

[Dr. LeeAnn Fishback]

Thank you very much for the question.

A lot of our facilities may not have some of those basic requirements as they may be located in an area where there is no road access, no port facility, or no airport. Basic infrastructure would very much help to be able to access facilities.

For example, in Churchill we haven't had a rail line for a year and a half now. They're in the process of fixing that rail line and hopefully we will have that rail link back soon. That will support projects like Mr. Barnard mentioned, the Churchill marine observatory. They're trying to get the construction materials in. These will help promote research facilities, and construction and operations to reduce some of those costs.

I think one other thing, as Mr. McLeod mentioned, would be in terms of increasing the capacity of indigenous communities to conduct research and to partner with the broader research community.

I'm sure that in Whitehorse you met with the Yukon College folks, who are working to establish a Yukon university, to actually have a university in the north.

I think these are all different ways that would help support Arctic research.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Everson, you spoke about competitiveness; issues that face the Canadian economy, and as they affect your industry, tax competitiveness. Carbon pricing was your second point.

Do you have a specific ask for assistance with or exemption from the carbon tax? What are you looking for?

[Jim Everson]

In the implementation of the carbon pricing system, there is work being done both with what's called the federal backstop and also with a provincial program to introduce a carbon levy called an output-based pricing system. It's a transition mechanism for large energy users, especially those that are exposed to the trade environment globally, to transition into that environment.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You're not asking for exemption. Are you asking for a rebate?

[Jim Everson]

We're asking for access to that output-based pricing system so that we can transition to that environment.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

This is a recurring theme that we've heard from other completely different industries. It really speaks to the competitive disadvantage that a whole variety of industries appear to face under this carbon pricing system. If we end up with a carbon tax that harms each industry in a carve-out or a special arrangement, or if transition money or you name it has to be paid, or indeed, as has come up in testimony, if we add a carbon levy to imports to make the playing field more level, we merely pass it all on to the consumer. The consumer at the same time is also pressed and without the capacity to pay an additional tax.

I think you said you had five points. There was taxation, carbon pricing, biodiesel, and you spoke about trade with China. What was your other point?

[Jim Everson]

No, those were the four.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. I thought you said five, and I was waiting for it.

In the moment or so that is left, is there anything that you want to add to any of those points?

[Jim Everson]

We're not suggesting that carbon taxes are a bad policy. We're not experts on how to address climate change.

We are in a globally competitive environment, and it's an extremely competitive environment with other oils globally. A tax in one jurisdiction that's not applied in another jurisdiction makes it extremely difficult to create the economic growth, especially for the products on the value-added side.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Hence there's the peril of mere carbon leakage, when you displace production in Canada, and it goes somewhere else without a carbon tax.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will have to end it there.

Mr. Fergus, you have the last questions.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To begin, I have a comment for Ms. Smitka. It is a comment, not a question.

Your sector does outstanding work for community development, just as the Community Futures Development Corporations, or CFDCs, and Business Development Centres, or BDCs, in Quebec do.

I am saying this to send a message to my colleagues at the table. If they are not already aware of the work of the BDCs and CFDCs, I encourage them to tour their own regions. They will find volunteers, both former business people and entrepreneurs, who are helping other entrepreneurs develop something in their own region.

That is what I wanted to say, Ms. Smitka. I commend you and fully support your request, which is entirely reasonable.

My questions pertain more to research. Ms. Fishback, Mr. Barnard and Ms. Trimbee, you talked about the importance of research, especially in the north. We have heard a lot about that here. Two of my colleagues, including Mr. McLeod, raised this issue. The link between the north and what Mr. Barnard and Ms. Trimbee are doing here is indigenous participation, not just indigenous students and indigenous communities, but also indigenous researchers.

Mr. Barnard and Ms. Trimbee, can you tell us about the role your institutions play? I hope the number of indigenous persons is growing at your universities and that they are doing research at all levels, from undergraduate to the doctoral level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who wants to start?

Ms. Trimbee.

[Dr. Annette Trimbee]

I mentioned that about 10% of our students are indigenous. We have some unique master's programs, for example, indigenous governance, and a master's in development practice, which is very much development done with an indigenous lens. We have expertise in health research that is different from the type of expertise you have in a medical school.

I think more and more of what we are emphasizing is that research done in indigenous communities should be led by indigenous researchers. Regarding the tri-council, SSHRC, NSERC and CIHR are looking at all of their programs. They're looking at ways of drawing in and attracting indigenous students to believe in themselves and believe in a career in research.

I think they are adapting in a very progressive way, and universities are adapting to go along with that. However, as I mentioned earlier, we need to work hard to help students make that transition to graduate school. Again, it takes them away from their community, and it might be perceived as creating an even bigger divide with respect to their isolation from their families and so on.

[Dr. David Barnard]

At the University of Manitoba, there's an increasing emphasis in research at the undergraduate level in all programs, and that applies to indigenous and non-indigenous students.

In a number of cases at the undergraduate level, we have put in place what we refer to as access programs. We specifically target indigenous students. The array of data that they present to make their case for entry may not be quite as strong. We allocate spaces for these students in programs like engineering, for example. The record has been that with some support during the programs, these people are amazingly successful.

Last year, both the gold medal winner and the third-place student in engineering had come in through the access program and done exceptionally well. I think there are two things at work there. One is getting students into the program, and the other is getting more research into the undergraduate programs.

At the graduate level, we've been very successful I think in hiring indigenous faculty, who themselves attract indigenous students. We've been increasing the number of indigenous faculty in each of the last several years. It's a specifically targeted budget envelope.

The third generic thing I would mention is our work in the north. I'm conscious of the time, so I'm hurrying. The very large amount of work that we do in the north is done collaboratively with indigenous people in the north. They work as partners with us, and so are heavily involved in that research.

In fact, we had had a very interesting publication done a few years ago, a very beautiful book, Two Ways of Knowing. It was a focus on two ways of knowing: what is found in the indigenous community and what's brought by the scientists who go there.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Sorry to interrupt you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Fergus, you're out of time. In fact, you're over your time. You'll have to change your clock.

We're going to run into a hard stop today because two members have to go. We will have to end it now at 10:30 a.m., to get to our next panel so that we are done on time. I'm sorry about that.

In any event, thank you to all the witnesses for your presentations.

We'll suspend for 10 minutes and start our next panel.

With that, the meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We have everyone here so we'll reconvene.

As everyone in this room knows, we're doing the final panel for the pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2019 budget, last but not least.

I want to thank every one of the witnesses for coming. For anybody who has made presentations prior to August 15, we do have them on our iPads and all of those are taken into consideration as well in what recommendations we may make to the government.

Before we start, I'd ask members to introduce themselves so that the folks know where all our members come from.

We'll start with Mr. Julian from the NDP.