Finance Committee on Nov. 5th, 2018

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I don't see any further questions. There is some information you can come back to us with. It's mostly Treasury Board, I believe.

Thank you very much for your presentation and for your work.

We'll turn to division 21.

We have Colin Spencer James, on his own, to talk about poverty reduction measures.

[Colin Spencer James, Senior Director, Social Development Policy, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you.

On August 21, the government released “Opportunity for All—Canada's First Poverty Reduction Strategy”. This strategy sets concrete targets for poverty reduction by 2020, reducing the poverty rate by 20% from its 2015 level, and reducing the poverty rate by 50% from its 2015 level by 2030. This aligns with United Nations sustainable development goal to eliminate poverty. Meeting these targets will lead to the lowest poverty rate in Canada's history, reducing the number of Canadians living in poverty to one in 10—or about 10%—by 2020, and one in 17 by 2030—a target of 6%. That means lifting approximately 2.1 million Canadians out of poverty by 2030.

The poverty reduction targets are being proposed to be put into law to cement a federal commitment to poverty reduction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Can you tell me what the legal force is of the word “aspire”?

[Colin Spencer James]

The targets by their very definition are aspirational. That is inherent in the legal definition of what a target is, so that is why you find the word “aspire” in the legislation.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Why are we legislating it? It looks like a news release to me.

[Colin Spencer James]

During the consultations on the poverty reduction strategy, a broad range of stakeholder groups and Canadians called for legislation that would entrench a federal commitment to reducing poverty. By putting the targets in legislation, it provides Canadians and parliamentarians with a tool to hold the government to account to reduce poverty.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I don't see how it could do that. It says “aspire”. I can aspire to a whole bunch of different things. It's so short. When you get to the second part, it says “the level of poverty”, so “20% below the level of poverty in 2015 by 2020”.

Nowhere in here do we define what we mean by any of it. It doesn't say, “I'm going to use Statistics Canada's LICO, the low-income threshold.” It doesn't say any of that. It just says “level of poverty”. Future governments can just say, “What I meant to say by 'level of poverty' was X”, when it could be Y or Z or whatever. It's so broad that it could mean anything. I'm just trying to understand.

Is this what stakeholders asked for? Is the broadness of this portion of the omnibus budget bill what they asked for?

[Colin Spencer James]

The poverty reduction strategy committed to putting three things in legislation. The bill that's before you today only includes the targets, but the government has also committed to putting into legislation the establishment of Canada's official poverty line, which is that measure that you're referring to, for how poverty would be measured, and that would be based on the market basket measure. The other element to put in legislation would be the national advisory council on poverty.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

You said “to hold the government to account”. There's no penalty assigned in here if the government doesn't meet that goal, so how are parliamentarians supposed to hold them to account?

I know you're just the messenger, but I'm asking you these questions.

[Colin Spencer James]

I am just the messenger. There is no consequence set out in legislation; however, it does, again, as I said, give Canadians and parliamentarians a tool to hold government to account by asking, for example, challenging questions like the one you're asking now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

In fact, we'll probably see that question in question period someday, Tom. You never know.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Perhaps, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Is there any further...?

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You drew the short straw, Mr. James, because by this time of night we've been at it for six hours today, so we're a little punchier than we might normally be.

I wonder why this was tossed into this massive omnibus budget bill, because the previous attempts to do the same thing have been separate. I think the landmark example that I can cite is Ed Broadbent's motion for the elimination of child poverty by the year 2000. That was passed by Parliament unanimously back in 1988 and of course has been the benchmark that subsequent governments have not met.

It would seem to me that the only value of this particular provision of the omnibus bill would be if it was taken out and presented separately and Parliamentarians got to vote on it as opposed to rolling it in in a way that doesn't even do justice to the titles.

You're not responsible for that, but I don't understand why it was tossed in so lightly. It kind of diminishes the whole exercise. I appreciate your presenting on it, and I wish there was something to reinforce it so it was more than a parliamentary motion and that there were provisions that would force the government to take action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Ms. Rudd.

[Kim Rudd]

I can assure Mr. Julian that it wasn't thrown in lightly. There was a lot of thought behind this.

To Mr. James's point, there are three elements to this. As you know, there's been an announcement that Minister Duclos will be making the announcement this week that will provide a definitive line in terms of poverty and that benchmark that you were talking about. As that will be announced prior to our making recommendations, I think we'll have the comfort of that prior to making the recommendations, so thank you for laying out the three. This is not stand-alone. This is part of three commitments that were clearly delineated for the plan.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I don't think there was a question. I think you just made a point.

Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm glad somebody knows how Minister Duclos feels.

The only thing I can go from is the legislation and the BIA. All I see here is “aspirational”. The word is actually used. It's like a news release. Can you tell me why the decision was made not to include specific data points that could be tracked and then used by parliamentarians to hold the government to account on these so-called targets under proposed paragraphs 2(a) and 2(b)?

[Colin Spencer James]

By putting Canada's official poverty line into law.... As was mentioned, that would follow separately. By putting that into law in addition to these targets, it would create the data points by putting those two pieces together.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

But they're not in here. Those data points, there's no reference to them in any way. There are just lofty goals that someday, something might be reached.

I also went through budget 2018. To the point Mr. Julian made about this omnibus budget bill, nowhere in there does it say that a poverty reduction act will be coming. There are 55 uses of the term “poverty” and nowhere does it mention legislation in any way whatsoever in budget 2018. I just did a “control+F” and went through the whole document trying to find it.

Why is it in here when it's not part of budget 2018 and specifically listed? I've asked that question of others on other divisions. I'm also asking you.

[Colin Spencer James]

Budget 2018 reinforced the government's commitment to the United Nations sustainable development goals. They include the goal of eliminating poverty, which is the first UN sustainable development goal. The target that is part of that UN sustainable development goal is aligned with the targets here. It's for that reason that these targets are being put in as part of the budget implementation act.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Can you tell me if any other western states or western nations have introduced similar types of legislation? Is this modelled on other legislation of other governments, or is this Canada's swing at it?

[Colin Spencer James]

There are a number of different jurisdictions that have put targets into legislation. The United Kingdom did it for child poverty in 2010. In Canada, British Columbia is in the process of doing it right now. There are precedents for this.