Evidence of meeting #184 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was proposed.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Manuel Dussault  Senior Director, Framework Policy, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Justin Brown  Director, Financial Stability, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Peter Fragiskatos  London North Centre, Lib.
Yuki Bourdeau  Senior Advisor, Capital Markets Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Eleanor Ryan  Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Jean-François Girard  Director, Consumer Affairs, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Brigitte Goulard  Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada
Kim Rudd  Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.
Mark Schaan  Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada
Ian Wright  Director, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Department of Finance
Darryl C. Patterson  Director, Corporate, Insolvency and Competition Policy Directorate, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Martin Simard  Director, Copyright and Trademark Policy, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Andrea Flewelling  Senior Policy Advisor, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Patrick Blanar  Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Dale MacMillan  Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer, National Research Council of Canada
Christopher Johnstone  Director General, National Programs and Business Services, National Research Council of Canada
Eric Grant  Director, Community Lands Development, Lands and Environmental Management, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Leane Walsh  Director, Fiscal Policy and Investment Readiness, Economic Policy Development, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Susan Waters  Director General, Lands and Environmental Management Branch, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Michèle Govier  Senior Director, Trade Rules, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Katharine Funtek  Executive Director, Trade Controls Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Bev Shipley  Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC
Nicole Giles  Director, International Trade and Finance, Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Department of Finance
Deirdre Kent  Director General, International Assistance Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Mark Lusignan  Director General, Grants and contributions Management, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Michelle Kaminski  Director, Office of Innovative Finance, Grants and Contributions Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Chantal Larocque  Deputy Director, Development Finance, Grants and Contributions Financial Policy, Foreign Affairs Canada
Danielle Bélanger  Director, Gender-Based Analysis Plus and Strategic Policy, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
Alison McDermott  General Director, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Derek Armstrong  Executive Director, Results Division, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Lori Straznicky  Executive Director, Pay Equity Task Team, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Don Graham  Senior Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Bruce Kennedy  Manager, Pay Equity Task Team, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Richard Stuart  Executive Director, Expenditure Analysis and Compensation Planning, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Colin Spencer James  Senior Director, Social Development Policy, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Andrew Brown  Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Barbara Moran  Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Rutha Astravas  Director, Employment Insurance Policy, Special Benefits Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Charles Philippe Rochon  Senior Policy Analyst, Labour Standards and Wage Earner Protection Program, Workplace Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Okay.

This is the first time—and I don't mean to belabour the point, which I may be—that I've ever heard the number of 94.1¢, which is obviously getting close to parity. That is great to know, but there's obviously more work to be done. This is the first time, in my memory, that I've heard of the 94.1¢.

Thank you for providing that data point.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Massé.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to my previous question.

Maybe it's late and my brain isn't functioning right, but I'm wondering who will have to develop this pay equity plan within the federal public service.

If I understood it correctly, the federal public service is part of the disposition of this act, so when you said there was a plan that needs to be prepared, I presume that every department will have to follow this.

8:05 p.m.

Senior Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Don Graham

No, every department is not an employer.

The departments are part of what we call a “core public administration”, which is all of the departments for which Treasury Board is the employer. There are also separate agencies, and they would be separate employers and have to develop a plan on their own, but for the core public administration, there would be one plan developed.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

I see.

Who would be responsible for developing this plan? Would it be the Treasury Board Secretariat?

8:05 p.m.

Senior Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Don Graham

It would be the Treasury Board.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

All right. I get it.

Thank you.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'll come to Bev in a second.

There's no question in my mind, regardless of gender, that people who do equivalent work should be paid equivalently.

However, I want to look at the other side of it. What's the cost, in terms of more public servants, etc., to administer this? We have a new pay equity commissioner. We have three more people in another agency. Is there any desire within the federal government to balance that off by reducing public servants in other sectors? Are we going to add to the cost of administration in government?

I have a question for Mr. Graham with the Treasury Board, and maybe you can't answer this question, but I'll ask it anyway. It's a loaded question. I'll tell you that up front.

Could you tell me how many managers there are today versus front-line workers, compared to say, 10 years ago? What I'm seeing—and I'll tell you right up front—is that in the outlying areas, there's always a shortage of front-line workers, but Ottawa seems to grow a little bit with more managers. I'd like to see the workers.

In any event, can you answer that question, before I get astray here?

8:05 p.m.

Senior Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Don Graham

I can't answer that question, but we can endeavour to get you an answer.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay, that would be dandy.

Mr. Shipley.

8:05 p.m.

Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC

Bev Shipley

I have a quick question.

I think it was 91.2% equity towards male salaries.... What was the percentage?

8:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Expenditure Analysis and Compensation Planning, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Richard Stuart

I apologize if I provided the wrong number there.

There are numbers for the core public admin and numbers for the public service. They vary. We can get back to the—

8:05 p.m.

Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC

Bev Shipley

Someone had mentioned that—and it was said to Mr. Sorbara—we're getting close to the equity of female wages to male wages. I thought that percentage was 90—

8:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Expenditure Analysis and Compensation Planning, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Richard Stuart

I think you're right.

8:10 p.m.

Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC

8:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Expenditure Analysis and Compensation Planning, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Richard Stuart

Now you've triggered my memory. I inverted the numbers. I apologize.

8:10 p.m.

Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC

Bev Shipley

Can you tell me what that percentage was—and you may not have it with you—five years ago, and what that percentage was 10 years ago?

8:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Expenditure Analysis and Compensation Planning, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Are there any further questions? There is some amount of information to come back through the clerk to the committee. That's fine.

Peter, go ahead.

8:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

It's a stand-alone bill. I won't ask you to comment on that, but my temptation would be to ask you how much debate there was within the ministry to submit this differently, as opposed to within omnibus legislation. I won't ask you that question.

I'll ask you the question around the exemption regulations, in proposed paragraph 181(1)(a) on page 431:

The Governor in Council may make regulations

(a) exempting, with or without conditions, any employer, employee or position, or any class of employers, employees or positions, from the application of any provision of this Act;

As I read that, the minister could exempt the whole industry or series of industries. Is that not true?

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

What page is it on?

8:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

It's page 431. It's on the top, proposed paragraph 181(1)(a), under “Regulations”.

I only read that one way. A whole industry could be exempted from all provisions of this act.

8:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Pay Equity Task Team, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development

Lori Straznicky

The intention at this point is that there is no identified industry that would be contemplated. As the legislation rolls out, it does provide flexibility if there is a class of employee or position, for example, that may need an exemption from the application of the provision of the act.

8:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

I'm just seeking clarification. I read “any employer” or “any class of employers”...“from the application of any provision of this Act”. That does give the ability to the minister to exclude a whole industry, a whole class of employees or a whole class of employers.

I know that may not be the intention, but I'm just reading what's on paper. Our job is to look through and see how this bill and its wording matches up with the intention of the government.

Would you agree with me that this would allow a basic blanket exemption of whole industries, industrial sectors or employees?

8:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Pay Equity Task Team, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development

Lori Straznicky

As you read it, I agree that it states that exemptions can be made with or without conditions for employees, employers or positions. Yes, I would agree.