Evidence of meeting #209 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mining.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Roberts  National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Darryl Marlowe  Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
Amanjit Lidder  Senior Vice-President, Taxation Services, MNP LLP
Vivian Krause  Researcher and Writer, As an Individual
Jennifer Kim Drever  Regional Tax Leader, MNP LLP
Francis Bradley  Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
Carole Saab  Executive Director, Policy and Public Affairs, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Brendan Marshall  Vice-President, Economic and Northern Affairs, Mining Association of Canada
Kim Moody  Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law
Lisa McDonald  Executive Director, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada
Lesley Williams  Director, Policy, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada

1:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law

Kim Moody

Can I respond?

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll give Mr. Moody a chance to respond, if he likes.

1:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law

Kim Moody

First of all, don't put words in my mouth. I never said “favourably” to France. I'm just pointing out that there are many countries around the world, and I focused on France because it's recent. Do I think that those examples that you've listed are exhaustive? Not in the least, and you would have that from a quick search on Google. Much more research and much more thought needs to be done than quick Google searches.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

No—

1:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law

Kim Moody

And the bottom line is that our industry—

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll give you a chance to—

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

—the information that I cited, so that the record reflects it, comes from the Columbia Journalism Review. I respect that journal, Mr. Chair.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll allow Mr. Moody to answer first, then we'll come back to you.

1:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law

Kim Moody

All I was about to say, before I was interrupted, was we should be looking at a much more systemic review of what the root causes are, and I explained what I think the root causes are: the Internet giants sucking away advertising revenues. Instead of a knee-jerk response to these so-called incentives, we should be looking at something much more thorough.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll let you close off the discussion, Mr. Fragiskatos, and then go over to Mr. Poilievre and then back to Mr. McLeod.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I simply made the point that countries have pursued the objective of supporting journalism as a critical part of democracy and they've taken various measures, various approaches, to create a situation whereby media can thrive, certainly independently of government.

With all due respect, Mr. Moody, you pointed to the example of France. You talked about the French example in favourable terms. You advised that the government look at—

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We don't want to get into a debate on that, Peter.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

All right. No problem. Thanks.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Each is on the record.

Mr. Poilievre.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I do think it's interesting that Mr. Fragiskatos, in the same breath, accuses others of trickle-down economics and then cites as his most favourable endorsement that of the head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, who was found criminally guilty of negligence for giving $400 million to a business tycoon. That is exactly the kind of trickle-down economics we've seen from this government, to take from the working class, give to the super rich through hand-outs and bailouts, and then hope that a few pennies trickle back down to the people who earned it in the first place. It's called trickle-down government.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We're having a few debates here.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I know, Chair, and there are certain debates you like and others you don't. This one wouldn't be the one you'd like. I wouldn't want to be running on it in P.E.I. if I were you, either. So I can understand why you'd like me to move on to something else.

Out of deference to you, still, I will ask a question—

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'd welcome you in P.E.I.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I'll ask Mr. Moody a question.

When you look at the tax regime in Canada and you compare it to our competitor jurisdictions, do you believe that high taxes are driving money out of the country?

1:45 p.m.

Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law

Kim Moody

Absolutely. No question.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What is the solution to that problem?

1:45 p.m.

Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law

Kim Moody

I think the knee-jerk response would be to reduce tax rates, both corporate and personal, especially personal. Having said that, I think the more thorough and better response is what this committee has probably heard dozens and dozens of times, which is comprehensive tax review. I've been a big believer, like most tax practitioners, for at least a dozen years, at least. This is not a new issue. I think some government needs to have the courage to actually do it, because it's the right thing to do.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What would it look like to you? What would tax reform look like?

1:45 p.m.

Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Gartner Tax Law

Kim Moody

You know what? I'm going in with an open mind. I would want to go in with an open mind. Everything is on the table.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What I'm hearing from my constituents is they feel like there's almost a war on work, when you consider how much a person loses out of a dollar that they earn. Right now, the average Canadian spends more on tax than on food, clothing and shelter combined. Let the record show that my Liberal colleagues snicker at these facts. Average people back home don't snicker at it.

When they earn the dollar, they pay, let's say, 40¢ in income tax and payroll tax. So they have 60¢ left. Then on every purchase they make with that remaining 60¢, they pay 13% or 14% in sales tax, depending on the jurisdiction in which they find themselves. Then they're paying gas tax and carbon tax and HST on both those taxes. If they're all taxed out and they need to have a drink, they're now paying higher taxes on beer, wine and spirits, a tax that rises automatically every single year. They know the government is supplying a future tax increase in the form of large, unnecessary deficits, which we know if they continue will metastasize into yet further tax increases.

Do you believe there is a disincentive to work and get ahead when the tax burden is as high as it is in Canada today?