Evidence of meeting #212 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clayton Achen  Managing Partner, Achen Henderson LLP
Shannon Coombs  President, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
Dennis Prouse  Vice-President, Government Affairs, CropLife Canada
Michael Hatch  Associate Vice-President, Financial Sector Policy, Canadian Credit Union Association
Audrey Macklin  Director, Centre for Criminology and Sociolegal Studies, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Michèle Biss  Policy Director and Human Rights Lawyer, Canada Without Poverty
Miles Corak  Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Leilani Farha  United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual
Jack Mintz  President's Fellow, School of Public Policy, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Lorne Waldman  Lawyer, As an Individual

May 14th, 2019 / 1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kim Rudd Liberal Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Ms. Farha, to follow up on your remarks, one of the things that I think we need to be aware of—and my colleague Michael McLeod talked about the north and the unique situation there—is that when you gave your examples, you used three major cities. Poverty and housing issues are alive and well, unfortunately, in rural Canada as well. When we hear the narrative about this, we continually hear about large cities. As you said, you just have to walk down the street.

In my community, walking down the street, you indeed may not see it, but if you look behind the curtains, as they say, or if you talk to those folks who are helping with providing meals and shelter.... Our police station lobby is now open in the winter for people because we have no shelter and no housing.

This is not a question, so much as a request, that as you're going through these processes, you provide a more broad view and a broader conversation around those situations that are outside the large city centres.

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

Though it wasn't a question, I will just reference it.

I take your point well. There isn't a place I've been in the world where there isn't poverty and homelessness, rural, suburban and in cities, so I take your point.

It was a short statement and one sentence.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kim Rudd Liberal Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you all.

We'll go to Mr. Poilievre, and then over to Mr. Fragiskatos.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

A well-documented cause of housing poverty is the excessive imposition of zoning regulations by municipal governments, particularly in large so-called progressive jurisdictions like Manhattan, San Francisco and others.

Does the UN rapporteur on housing address these kinds of governmental obstacles to housing mobility?

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

Thanks for that interesting comment and question.

Absolutely, I've been working quite extensively at the municipal level in the last couple of years. Interestingly, my conversations with municipal governments are the same as my conversations with national or federal governments, which are that cities have to adopt housing strategies based in human rights to address the various things going on in cities that are creating the unaffordability of housing. That would include looking at zoning laws and regulations that are contributing to housing unaffordability: the lack of available housing, land speculation, etc.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What's the solution to this kind of exclusionary zoning?

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

It depends on the context.

Every city is different, the way in which zoning works or doesn't work—

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Some examples...?

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I know every city is different, but obviously you'd have some examples—

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

Examples of what?

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Proposals you have made to remove exclusionary zoning, to allow developers to build more densification so that people can afford to live in places where there are jobs and good schools.

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

I'm not sure of the relevance of this to the legislation that we're talking about today, but seeing as you're interested, in Dublin, for example, there's a real issue of developers sitting on land and waiting for that land to have increased value before they do anything with it. I've been working with some folks in Dublin to try to figure out a way to get those land owners and developers to act on their purchases and free up that land. Dublin is a city that is experiencing a homelessness crisis like few others.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I'm just surprised that you don't have any examples of zoning restrictions and red tape that you would like to see removed. It's now very well documented by a broad spectrum of think tanks and policy-makers from both left and right that municipalities, particular large so-called progressive towns—places like Manhattan—are keeping poor people away from jobs because they restrict the supply of housing, prevent developers from building. Then they scream and holler about how they need more government money to build government housing.

I find it incredibly ironic that you claim to be an advocate for housing, but you don't have any proposals to remove governmental obstruction to the construction of that very housing.

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

Perhaps you misunderstand my job, Mr. Poilievre. I am the UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing. I generally interact with national-level governments.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Yes.

1:40 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

When I interact with city-level governments, the discussion is about human rights and housing. Those discussions tend toward discussions around what would the right to adequate housing look like if it were implemented in a city.

In that case, I don't meddle in the details of a city's decision around this bylaw and that bylaw, etc. What I do is provide a framework, which is what I've done with the national-level government in this country, to help them understand what it means to actually put in the foundational pieces of a rights-based approach. It would then be—

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

It sounds like a big word salad to me.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Poilievre, you're out of time.

1:45 p.m.

United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Right to Housing, As an Individual

Leilani Farha

Could I please finish?

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

You've had a lot of time to—

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Poilievre, you're out of time—

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

—answer the question, and you certainly have not even started. It sounds like you don't do much other than generate words—

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Order. Pierre—