Evidence of meeting #215 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Maude Lavoie  Director General, Business Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Trevor McGowan  Director General, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Charlene Davidson  Senior Project Leader, Financial Crimes Policy, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy, Department of Finance
Samuel Millar  Director General, Corporate Finance, Natural Resources and Environment, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. David Gagnon
Darryl C. Patterson  Director, Corporate, Insolvency and Competition Policy Directorate, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Tolga Yalkin  Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health
Colin Stacey  Acting Director General, Pilotage Act Review, Department of Transport
Sara Wiebe  Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport
Joyce Henry  Director General, Office of Energy Efficiency, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
André Baril  Senior Director, Refugee Affairs, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Michel Tremblay  Senior Vice-President, Policy and Innovation, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Ariane Gagné-Frégeau  Procedural Clerk
Karen Hall  Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Hugues Vaillancourt  Senior Director, Social Development Policy Division, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Sorry, you said for statistical items it will be the chief statistician. Would the chief statistician decide what goes in the basket or just decide on the methodological system for calculating the line?

5:50 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Karen Hall

Statistics Canada is responsible for the statistical methodology and working closely with ESDC officials to determine what should be in the basket. For example—

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Who would decide what goes in the basket?

5:50 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Karen Hall

For example, say we know that there needs to be a measure for transportation, as I think I spoke about a couple of weeks ago. The question of whether there should be a transportation measure in the basket is a policy question. Once it's determined that there should be a measure of transportation, then that will go to Statistics Canada to determine if that should be a Ford Focus, a Cavalier, another type of vehicle, or if it should be the weighted average of the five most popular cars, and whether it should be five or eight years old. That is the province of Statistics Canada.

Again, it is based on consultation, and there will be significant transparency about the process.

The consultation has been undertaken. There have been six different processes that have spoken with provinces and territories, with experts and with people with lived experience of poverty. There's been an “ask me anything” and a broader public consultation.

The results are going to be made public all the way along. We'll have a “what we heard” report that will be released shortly by Statistics Canada. It will sum up the results of the consultation.

There will be a validation exercise, we expect, where the results will be put forward for Canadians so that we can seek their input. The final methodology will be released at the time the new market basket measure is released, around the time of the Canadian income survey, in February of next year.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Just to be helpful here, in terms of the policy question that I think Mr. Poilievre is trying to get to, would it be the ESDC minister's decision on the policy on what's in the basket? Who makes the ultimate decision about what's in the basket?

5:50 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Karen Hall

The ultimate decision will be with officials. We will keep the minister informed, and the decisions will be with officials.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

There are 23,000 employees at ESDC. Who is the decider on this?

5:50 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Karen Hall

As I said previously, it will be the chief statistician, and then the deputy minister at ESDC.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Ultimately, somebody somewhere has to sign off on it, so who would that be? Would it be the deputy? Would it be the minister? Would it be a director general in charge of food baskets? Somebody somewhere has to sign off on it somehow.

5:55 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Karen Hall

Yes, well I'm the director general who's responsible for the poverty reduction area at ESDC, so I would be one of the signators, as would Hugues, along the way, as the decisions are going along. Then they would go along potentially north of me to the deputy. The intention is that we will keep the minister informed, but the decisions will rest with officials.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Can I confirm that the final decision will rest with the deputy minister of ESDC on what is and what is not in the basket? Do we have that right?

5:55 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Karen Hall

The overall policy direction, yes.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

No, I'm not looking for the policy direction. You have a basket—here it is—and you have a bunch of people debating what should be in that basket. At the end of the day, one person is going to have to make a final decision, unless it's going to be solved by a vote or a show of hands. Somebody's going to have to say, “I am the man”—or the woman—“who says product x needs to be in the basket.” Are you saying that that person will be the deputy minister of Employment and Social Development Canada?

5:55 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Karen Hall

Yes, that decision will rest with officials.

Yes, it will be the deputy, and we will keep the minister informed, but the decision will rest with the deputy.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Thank you.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Did you want in, Mr. Dusseault?

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I was just saying that it took time, but we got it.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

There was good discussion.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

NDP-23 is inadmissible as it requires a royal recommendation. I will go through the reasons, Mr. Dusseault.

Clause 315 of Bill C-97 proposes the poverty reduction act. Amendment NDP-23 seeks to increase the maximum number of members on the national advisory council on poverty.

House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 772:

Since an amendment may not infringe upon the financial initiative of the Crown, it is inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.

In the opinion of the chair, increasing the maximum number of members on the national advisory council on poverty would impose a charge on the public treasury and alter the terms and conditions of the royal recommendation. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

Turning to PV-6, it's deemed moved. Are there any comments?

Ms. Bendayan.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Mr. Chair, I believe we touched on this issue earlier. I wanted to perhaps clarify, as my colleague stated, that the clause outlining the establishment of the national advisory council on poverty already includes the language that a member with particular responsibilities for children's issues will be one of the eight to 10 members appointed, making amendment PV-6 unnecessary and redundant.

The language of proposed subsection 9(1), on the national advisory council on poverty, states that the council shall consist of eight to 10 members, including a chairperson, and a member with particular responsibilities for children's issues.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

It is six o'clock.

Pierre, do you have long descriptions on your amendments? You have three of them. I'm just wondering if we could complete division 20, so we don't have to call back Ms. Hall and Mr. Vaillancourt tomorrow morning at 8:45, because that's when we start.

6 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

It will take 5 to 10 minutes at the very most, depending on how lively the debate is.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll try. Are we okay to go 10 minutes, folks?

Okay, we'll go for 10 minutes.

Mr. Dusseault.

6 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, I will be brief.

You already decided that amendment NDP-23 is not in order, and I understand your decision. I was somewhat expecting it, but I would at least have tried to follow it with a recommendation from some witnesses.

Amendment NDP-24 follows up on the previous one. It is intended to ensure the widest possible diversity on the national advisory council on poverty that is proposed in the bill. Our proposal for a subsection 9(3.1) calls for the council to be made up of people from vulnerable groups, people from organizations that fight poverty, and people reflecting the diversity of Canadian society. The goal is for the council to be more diverse. I hope I have the support of members of this committee. It seems like quite a reasonable amendment to me. It is intended simply to ensure diversity on the council.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. McLeod.