Evidence of meeting #215 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Maude Lavoie  Director General, Business Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Trevor McGowan  Director General, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Charlene Davidson  Senior Project Leader, Financial Crimes Policy, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy, Department of Finance
Samuel Millar  Director General, Corporate Finance, Natural Resources and Environment, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. David Gagnon
Darryl C. Patterson  Director, Corporate, Insolvency and Competition Policy Directorate, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Tolga Yalkin  Director General, Consumer Product Safety Directorate, Department of Health
Colin Stacey  Acting Director General, Pilotage Act Review, Department of Transport
Sara Wiebe  Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport
Joyce Henry  Director General, Office of Energy Efficiency, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
André Baril  Senior Director, Refugee Affairs, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Michel Tremblay  Senior Vice-President, Policy and Innovation, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Ariane Gagné-Frégeau  Procedural Clerk
Karen Hall  Director General, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Hugues Vaillancourt  Senior Director, Social Development Policy Division, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

6 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Mr. Chair, we can't support his amendment because the Governor in Council website already publicly commits the government to ensuring that minority groups are taken into consideration when making a recommendation. Any time you make a short list, there's always a risk that organizations will be missed and in this case indigenous people are absent from the proposed amendment.

Furthermore, the Government of Canada has implemented an appointment process that is transparent, merit-based and strives for gender parity, so we oppose this amendment.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings]

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Next is NDP-25.

Mr. Dusseault.

6 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

This amendment is intended to delete three lines from the bill under the subheading “Dissolution”. In the English version, it is “Dissolution of Council” but just “Dissolution” in the French version. We want it to be possible for the council to continue in existence. A number of witnesses have told the committee that there will be no reason to dissolve the council. The minister might decide that the Council no longer has any use if the objective of reducing poverty by 50% below the 2015 level is achieved and that we should celebrate the fact, close the books and move on to other priorities.

But reducing, not to say eliminating, poverty, must be an on-going objective that is maintained over time. I do not know why it would be necessary to dissolve the council. Even if the objective of reducing poverty by 50% is achieved, the council will still be useful, as long as poverty has not been eliminated.

I hope that the members of the committee will adopt this reasonable amendment, so that the proposed council can do its work even after the government has achieved its objective, which I see as not ambitious enough.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. McLeod.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Mr. Chairman, by tying the mandate of the council to poverty reduction targets committed to in legislation, the council will hold the Government of Canada to account and ensure that the 50% target is reached. The national advisory council on poverty shouldn't have to continue forever. Its creation and mandate are to support the government in reaching its poverty reduction targets.

We'll be opposing this amendment.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Dusseault, go ahead.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Let me go to the officials. Why would the council be dissolved once its target has been achieved? Are we going to stop making efforts to reduce poverty, congratulate ourselves, and move on to something else?

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Ms. Hall or Mr. Vaillancourt.

6:05 p.m.

Hugues Vaillancourt Senior Director, Social Development Policy Division, Social Policy Directorate, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Thank you for your question, Mr. Dusseault.

The bill defines certain targets. Other measures will continue to exist, such as the various poverty indicators. The bill allows the Governor in Council to dissolve the council on poverty when its targets are achieved.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you for your answer, Mr. Vaillancourt.

I find it a real pity that the council cannot continue to exist once the targets have been achieved. I take exception to the government's position.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Poilievre.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

In practice, I'm not sure it's a major concern. Once these councils are set up, they never disappear. They always find a way to stay around.

I've looked at these programs. They're called sunset programs, but government programs are like the British Empire. The sun never sets on them because they're just renewed and renewed. Once this council is set up, the members of the council will find another reason why they need to continue to exist and consume our resources whether or not the targets are reached. So I don't think my NDP colleague has anything to worry about.

If we should live until we're 90 years old, this council will still be around. You can celebrate its anniversary then.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

We'll see.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Next is NDP-26.

Mr. Dusseault.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have been careful with the time we have been given. I have three minutes left.

The goal of amendment NDP-26 is to make the reports submitted to Parliament more transparent.

I can already hear the government telling me that those reports, and a lot of other information, are already published on the minister's website. However, if that is not specified in the legislation, nothing guarantees that he will do so in the future. The bill states that the “Minister must cause the report…to be tabled in each House of Parliament on any of the first 15 days on which that House is sitting after the Minister receives the report." This amendment proposes the addition of subsection 12(2), as follows: “The minister must post the report on the departmental website within 30 days after the day on which the report is tabled in Parliament.”

This request has been made to provide more transparency, and I do not see why the government would be opposed to it, unless, once again, they argue that they will do it, even though there is no legal obligation to do so, and we must not worry. It could well decide overnight that it is not going to do it anymore. With this amendment, it would be required to do it, and it could not back out of those obligations.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Let's see what Mr. McLeod has to say.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Mr. Chairman, I think the honourable member knows that reports tabled in Parliament are available to the public, so it's not necessary to legislate that the minister post it to the department website.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 315 as amended agreed to on division)

(Clause 316 agreed to on division)

(On clause 317)

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

There's one amendment proposed, NDP-27.

Mr. Dusseault.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Once again, this amendment is intended simply to replace the word “reduction” with the word “elimination”. It corresponds to the amendments I introduced earlier today.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Fragiskatos.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I don't support this amendment, nor does anyone on this side, Mr. Chair, for the reasons set out earlier when I rebutted I forget which amendment that my colleague opposite put forward, but the comments on poverty elimination and the critique of that approach stand with respect to this amendment as well.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 317 agreed to on division)

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

With that, thank you, Ms. Hall and Mr. Vaillancourt.

Tomorrow morning we will start on division 21 and go through the remainder.

We will meet at 8:45 a.m. in room 0-25.

Thank you, all.

The meeting is adjourned.