Evidence of meeting #33 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alberta.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Saunderson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification
James Meddings  Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction (Ottawa), Department of Western Economic Diversification
Kent Estabrooks  Vice-President, New Brunswick, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency
Kalie Hatt-Kilburn  Director of Policy, Advocacy and Coordination, New Brunswick , Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency
Manon Brassard  Deputy Minister – President , Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec
Pierre-Marc Mongeau  Vice-President, Operations, Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec
Patrick Dorsey  Vice-President, Prince Edward Island, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency
Lynne Beairsto  Director of Corporate Programs and Services, Prince Edward Island, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I call the meeting to order. Today's hearing begins the pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2017 budget.

With us today we have Mr. Saunderson, Mr. Meddings, and Mr. Dunford from the Department of Western Economic Diversification.

Welcome, folks.

Because I'm not sure whether or not we sent these questions to you, I would say just to start that the whole thrust of our pre-budget hearings is on economic growth. How do we achieve it? What federal actions would assist Canadian businesses in all regions and sectors meet the expansion, innovation, and prosperity goals, and therefore contribute to economic growth in the country? That's the bottom line of our theme. We invited all the regional development agencies in each province to come forward to talk in that context.

The floor is yours. I believe you were offered 10 minutes, so we'll have to give you the 10 minutes. Go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Jim Saunderson Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Jim Saunderson. I am Western Economic Diversification's assistant deputy minister for the Alberta region.

I'm accompanied today by James Meddings, our assistant deputy minister for policy and strategic direction, who is based here in Ottawa, and Ryan Dunford, the acting director general for policy, who, like me, is from Edmonton.

I would like to thank the committee for the invitation to speak to you today. As the first representative from my department to appear, I would like to provide you with a very brief overview of our department.

Western Economic Diversification—or “WD”, as we like to call it—was established in 1987 and has a mandate to contribute to the development and diversification of the economy in western Canada. We are headquartered in Edmonton and have a presence in each of the four western provinces. This allows us to build strong relationships on the ground with provincial governments, industry, not-for-profit and indigenous organizations, and academia.

The department has four priorities, and I'll come back to them later on: innovation, trade and investment, indigenous economic growth, and federal defence procurement. To address these priorities, we have three main programs.

First, we have the western innovation program, which provides repayable contributions to for-profit companies to help them commercialize new technologies. Second is the western diversification program, which provides non-repayable contributions to not-for-profit organizations, including post-secondary institutions, to invest in projects that support our priorities. Third is the western Canada business service network, which includes 100 non-profit organizations that provide services and loans to small businesses across the west. Also, of course, we deliver the western component of national programs when asked to, including the Canada 150 program to celebrate the sesquicentennial of Confederation next year.

But I am here today to talk about the Alberta economy.

After many years of strong economic growth, conditions in Alberta have changed dramatically. Between the 2008 recession and 2014, Alberta's economy grew by nearly 20%, more than double the national average.

Alberta's population has grown to 4.2 million—just behind B.C. in size—and, despite the recession, the provincial GDP is the third-largest in Canada, behind Quebec and Ontario. Of course, as we all know, the Alberta economy is dominated by the oil and gas sector. It makes up about 27% of our GDP.

However, energy prices have dropped from a high of $107 U.S. per barrel in June of 2014 into the mid-$40 range today. This has caused the Alberta economy to decline by approximately 3.7% in 2015, and it's expected to decline by another 2.7% in the current year, 2016.

This will be the first time the Alberta economy will have contracted two years in a row since 1982. Unemployment rates and employment insurance claims are on the rise, while capital investments are in decline. The unemployment rate in Alberta is currently at 8.4%, which is above the national average, and is roughly double the level that we were experiencing two years ago. Also, of course, capital investment in the oil and gas sector has declined by the substantial amount of $50 billion annually between 2014 and 2016.

Of course, the results in 2016 have been exacerbated by the wildfires in Fort McMurray, which caused significant damage to the city and resulted in a reduction of approximately 40 million barrels of oil production when the plants were shut down for safety reasons. The impact of these wildfires on Alberta's GDP will result in a reduction of about 0.6% in 2016, but for 2017 the forecasts are suggesting that the GDP will be about 1% higher than it would otherwise be as the rebuilding efforts begin in earnest.

But all is not bleak. The fluctuation in global prices is nothing new for the energy industry, and most analysts expect oil prices to slowly recover over the next year.

In fact, oil sands production is expected to increase from 2.4 million barrels per day in 2015 to about 3.7 million barrels, as previously planned projects come online.

I think it is important to note that when we talk about the price of oil—I think it was $44 U.S. this morning—that is really the headline price for West Texas Intermediate, which is the benchmark price for lighter U.S. oil. Alberta producers typically receive about $14 U.S. a barrel less for their Western Canadian Select heavy oil. The interest that you hear from Albertans in improving pipeline capacity is not about simply increasing the volume of oil that is exported; it is about adding new customers so that we can introduce an element of competition. It is about maximizing the value of the province's resources, which even at today's reduced prices accounted for about 12% of total Canadian exports last year.

It is important to note that the industry is taking action to increase its competitiveness, as well as to lessen its environmental footprint. For example, Canada's Oil Sands Innovation Alliance, commonly called COSIA, brings together the major oil sands producers and others to develop new approaches and improve environmental performance. To date, COSIA reports that over 800 technologies have been shared among its members.

Of course, the Alberta economy is about a lot more than oil and gas. For example last year, 2015, Alberta was Canada's third largest agriculture and agrifood exporter, with exports totalling about $10 billion, and we were the fourth largest producer of forestry products, with revenues in the $3-billion range.

In terms of building value added to our resources, Alberta's industrial heartland near Edmonton is one of the world's leading chemical, petrochemical, upgrading, and refining clusters. It has attracted over $30 billion of investment to date from over 40 companies.

The ICT sector is a key component of the Alberta economy. It includes nearly 4,500 companies employing approximately 50,000 Albertans. Their expertise ranges from bioinformatics and global positioning systems to health management systems and wireless communications.

A great example is a company called ResolutionMD, which WD supported through our western innovation program. It enables doctors to review patient information, collaborate, and diagnose using a wide variety of electronic devices. This technology has been accredited internationally in the United States, China, Hong Kong, Europe, and other countries.

Also, Alberta is home to the flagship of nanotechnology research in Canada, the National Institute for Nanotechnology. It was established as a partnership between the National Research Council, the University of Alberta, the Government of Alberta, and the Government of Canada. I am proud to say that our department has played a role, both behind the scenes and with financing some additional equipment.

The environmental industry is an important industry in Alberta as well, with some 1,300 companies generating some $2.8 billion in annual revenues. These companies are active in the remediation of land, climate change solutions, water treatment, and waste management. A good example of our success at diversification as a province is TRIUM Environmental, which recently signed a $40-million agreement to pursue the soil and groundwater remediation market in China, with assistance from both the federal and provincial governments.

The life sciences and pharmaceutical sciences sector is also important in Alberta, comprising some 200 companies with an estimated revenue of $1.5 billion, building on the research strength of our universities.

There are two challenges I would like to speak about very briefly. First, Alberta's economy remains heavily dependent on the oil and gas sector, and diversification is therefore important. That is why my department supports innovative small businesses to commercialize their technologies in areas such as medical devices. The second challenge is the transition facing the oil and gas sector. To succeed, the Canadian industry must contain costs and develop new technologies to enhance environmental performance. Again, an example of my department's involvement is some assistance we have given to COSIA to bring the oil industry together with the very vibrant clean tech sector in British Columbia.

Alberta is fortunate to have a young and growing indigenous population. Approximately 6% of Albertans are indigenous people, which comprises about 15% of the total indigenous population in Canada. It is important to note that indigenous-owned and operated businesses have played a vital role in growing Alberta's economy, including the development of the oil sands. Alberta has a strong entrepreneurial spirit and the potential to grow by expanding the range of value-added products, increasing access to capital, and supporting entry into global markets. The new innovation agenda being spearheaded by the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development will support these opportunities.

In conclusion, it is expected that Alberta's economy will begin to recover in 2017. Continued support and coordination from all orders of government will enable Alberta's businesses and communities to diversify and grow, and I think my department can play a key role in this respect.

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank you and the committee for this opportunity to speak to you this afternoon.

My colleagues and I will be very happy to take your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Saunderson.

We have had a note going through here. We talked about the Alberta discount in terms of the oil price a number of times in previous hearings.

Let us start the round of questions with Mr. MacKinnon for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us today. You are brave because you're kicking off a round of hearings with regional development agencies and you're first into the breach. I applaud you for that.

Speaking as a Quebec member of parliament, I would like to state for the record—and I'm sure this is true of each of my colleagues—that we all have an interest in putting people back to work, getting investment flowing, and seeing Alberta re-emerge from this period of low commodity prices and the natural disasters that have befallen that province.

I thank you in advance for your role in helping get that done.

As the chairman pointed out, part of the challenge that we have through these pre-budget consultations, and with regional development agencies, is finding ways in which we can help the Canadian economy grow, find innovation, and perhaps return to the original intent of regional development agencies. This means applying a bit of a local touch to the national conundrum of productivity enhancements, innovation, and diversifying the economy.

My first question would be a bit of a retrospective one. We went through a pretty sustained period of investment and relatively high commodity prices, notwithstanding the famous Alberta discount.

What are the kinds of things that should have been occurring in Alberta through that cycle of high commodity prices that would have altered the trajectory that we are seeing today?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

It's a fascinating question, thank you for that.

As to what could or should have been done, I guess I can't help reflecting on an old bumper sticker from a previous oil bust—this is actually the fourth time in my lifetime that oil prices have declined by more than 50%—something to the effect of, “Please Lord, give me another oil boom. I promise not to...this one away.”

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

I thought you were going to say the one about eastern people freezing or...

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

No, my wife would never forgive me if I went anywhere near that; she's a Sudbury girl.

It's interesting to go back and talk about what should have been done by the provincial government, at the federal level, I suppose, and even at municipal levels.

I've been with the department not quite since its inception but for over 25 years now. What I can say is that I think we've been pretty much on the right track. Diversifying an economy like Alberta's is not easy. The weight of oil and gas, particularly when prices are high, is immense. As I said, it's 27% of the GDP now. It was 35% back in the 1980s. It attracts people with its high wages. It attracts capital with its high rates of return. It's kind of hard to compete against.

I think it may be a credit to the government—a series of governments, to be fair—that have stuck with our department for what will be over 30 years next August. It will be our 30th anniversary. They have continually kept up an effort to work towards diversification and to help companies commercialize their new technologies.

Our language has changed a little bit over time, but the emphasis hasn't. Over 50% of aboriginal or indigenous peoples live western Canada. That number has been true throughout this length of time and has been demographically important. We've tried to play a modest role in moving forward the opportunities for indigenous peoples to participate more fully in the economy throughout that period of time.

It's interesting to go back and look, but I think what's required, and partly what's taken, is a long-term perspective of consistently applying force on an object, even if it's fairly small.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I always think of the image of an asteroid coming towards earth. That's like the economy of western Canada, hundreds of billions of dollars. You try to adjust its trajectory with albeit relatively small amounts. If you apply them consistently over a period of time I think you can adjust that trajectory, at least a little bit. When I look back over my career I think we've have some success at doing that.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Steven MacKinnon Liberal Gatineau, QC

In your presentation you do identify a couple of sectors, for example, clean tech, petrochemicals, greater inclusion of indigenous peoples in the workforce, growing the workforce—I take it, through better engagement with indigenous peoples. But they all seem to revolve around that asteroid, to use your metaphor. So is it your posit today that fundamentally, what we should be doing in order to restart the Alberta economy is continue to leverage the energy sector, continue to leverage oil and gas? Hope for a bump in commodity prices, but continue to build out and build around that sector, and that is what will achieve diversification?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

I think we need a twofold approach. The oil and gas sector is 27% of Alberta's economy, so to ignore it would not make sense to me. It would be to work with the industry, both to reduce its cost structure, so it can compete in a world of lower prices, or perhaps this Alberta discount will continue, and to reduce its environmental imprint, because that's important to all of us on this planet, but also to go beyond oil and gas. There is no one industry that is going to replace 20% of the GDP in any economy, but there are potentials in Alberta, and I tried to touch on them in my opening remarks.

We probably are the centre of nanotechnology in Canada, because of the presence of the National Institute for Nanotechnology, NINT, at the University of Alberta. There are dozens of companies that are spinning off and have the potential to take their technologies to market.

We have some strength in the health sector. The University of Calgary, for example, is one of the world leaders in the biome. It's kind of gross when you think of it, but there are actually millions of organisms living on and in our bodies, and they're not just hitching a ride; they're part of us, part of our health. By understanding how that biome works more effectively we can develop technologies that can diagnose diseases and perhaps cure some of them in ways that we've not been able to.

So building on those kinds of expertise, I think, is the kind of thing that.... It has really nothing to do with oil and gas. So I think, in short, we need a double-barrelled approach.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Mr. Saunderson and Mr. MacKinnon.

Mr. Aboultaif.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Thank you very much.

I'm from Edmonton, from Alberta basically, very close to the heartland that you mention in your report. I do appreciate the information that you have in your report and in your speech, as it was delivered.

There are a few things that come to my mind. First, we're talking about increasing from 2.4 million barrels a day to 3.7 million by 2030. That's about a 35%, 40% increase. Seeing what's happening in the market and with the environmental industries coming through and the green technologies.... What are those figures, the growth in production to 3.7 million barrels a day, based on?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

Those are the estimates that we got from various environmental or industry forecasters. Of course, in any forecast for the future, the only thing I always guaranteed my boss.... I used to be the CFO for the department. He'd ask me for my financial forecast. I'd give it to him, and I'd say that I could guarantee him it's probably not going to be quite right.

Because there are already some plants that are under construction that will increase production and will come online in the near future, I think the production is actually going to increase.

The challenge for the industry, as much as anything, though, is to get their costs down and improve their environmental performance. There's a lot of interest in the industry now, for example, in steam-assisted gravity drainage, where they heat steam, inject it into the ground, melt the bitumen, suck it out, and that improves the steam-to-oil ratio. If you can do that, there's a double-barrelled benefit: you generate fewer greenhouse gases in the production of the steam, and you reduce your costs so that you can compete more effectively in a global market.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

I'll go back to the same question. There's an expectancy of growth of some kind and the the economy's going to pick up in 2017 in Alberta. Twenty-seven per cent of the province's economy today is based on the oil sector. Last year and in years before, it was close to 40%, maybe more, and Alberta was basically carrying the whole Canadian economy.

How do you anticipate that growth is going to happen? We do have a transition period that we're going through right now. Can you explain to me what the government expects that transition period to take to be able to carry ourselves through the hardship of the times right now and to keep Alberta's economy in at least a comfortable balance, if not an acceptable balance?

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

I think after you see the price of oil rises—and most analysts think that with starts, stops, and drawbacks, over a period of time, it will rise from the $44 range it's in right now to at least the fifties or sixties—some projects that are not tenable right now and the more conventional kind of drilling activity will start to make economic sense. You will see people in the private sector, frankly, wanting to take advantage of the opportunity to make a buck, and they'll do so.

A lot of the growth, though, is already in the pipeline, if you'll excuse the pun. There are projects that are under construction on which billions of dollars have been spent, and it doesn't make sense to stop. It makes more sense to finish them and start to get some cash flow out of them. That will account for a substantial part of the increased production going forward.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Okay.

We know Saudi Arabia has been increasing its production just to recover the revenue from the drop in world pricing. We have to do the same. We have to get our oil out, so the pipeline is mandatory. It's very important for Alberta. Is there an intention for this to happen any time soon?

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

Three major pipelines that would get western Canadian oil to tidewater are on the table right now. I think over the next few weeks and months we'll find out what their fate is going to be. We're already seeing an increase in the shipments of oil by rail, and there is a potential for that to increase as well if pipelines are not in place.

Any growth in pipelines has to be balanced against the environmental and social implications that go along with those pipelines. I understand that the Prime Minister has asked the Minister of Natural Resources to look at the National Energy Board and to modernize the National Energy Board. We'll see where that leads us in the future, perhaps towards a different kind of regulatory regime in which Canadians will have even greater confidence.

That starts to be a little bit outside of my department's mandate, of course. We're not a regulatory department; we have a different role.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

I have one final question. I see little mention of agriculture. Does the government see that agriculture could be an area in which the economy might pick up and balance itself, in the absence of the oil industry and the weaknesses in that area?

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

Mr. Chairman, I'd really like to thank the member for that particular question.

I think the agriculture industry has a lot of potential in the future. Even in a dot-com economy, people are still going to want to eat.

Western Canada and Alberta produce high-quality food. We have the potential to add more value to it before we ship it.

One of the projects, for example, that we supported jointly with the Department of Agriculture was an investment of about $3 million—if my memory is right—in the Canadian Beef Centre in Calgary. They have already, I think, brought in about three dozen international groups to come and see how beef is grown and prepared in Canada and how to prepare it back home, with the idea of making Canadian beef the dish of choice when you have your in-laws in for dinner in Korea or China. They report sales in excess of $100 million, at least partly attributed to this kind of investment.

I agree completely that there is a lot of potential to further explore and expand food and agrifood shipments out of Alberta and indeed all of western Canada.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, both.

I believe that beef centre is based on the model of the Canadian International Grains Institute, which operates out of Winnipeg for the pasta industry and grains industry.

Mr. Caron.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the three representatives of the Department of Western Economic Diversification for being here today.

I will start with a fairly simple question.

There is a great deal of talk about oil and gas. When I am asked questions in Quebec about wind energy, I am often told that Quebec is the largest producer of wind energy. Most of the time, I tend to correct people by telling them that Alberta is the largest producer.

However, in your presentation, you did not really mention the expansion of the research, development, and use of renewable energy in Alberta, even though the province was and is still considered a leader in the development of renewable energy.

How do you view the government's role in the next year, or in the next five years, in Alberta in particular?

4 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

Thank you for the question.

There are many ways to increase the production of renewable energy in Alberta.

The provincial government, for example, has committed to winding down our coal-fired power plants, which right now produce the majority of electricity in Alberta. Those plants will be replaced by a mix of gas-fired electricity, which is much cleaner than coal, and 30% renewables is their plan. If you've ever been to southern Alberta where I grew up there's no shortage of wind or sun for that matter, and there definitely is some potential for that. One of the projects that our department is looking at is something that we're really quite proud of in Edmonton, which is taking municipal garbage and converting it into useable fuel products and in ethanol and methanol. I think there is indeed a lot of potential in Alberta for that kind of development.

4 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

It's called biomethanization.

4 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification

Jim Saunderson

Sorry, I didn't quite catch that.

4 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

It's called biomethanization.

4 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, Department of Western Economic Diversification