Evidence of meeting #6 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Simon Brault  Director and Chief Executive Officer, Director's Office, Canada Council for the Arts
Mark Bain  Vice-Chair, Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships
Jeff Morrison  Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association
Martin Lavoie  Director, Business Tax and Innovation, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Matthew Calver  Economist, Centre for the Study of Living Standards
Morna Ballantyne  Member of the Board of Directors, Child Care Advocacy Association of Canada
Christopher Smillie  Senior Advisor, Government Relations and Public Affairs, Canada's Building Trades Unions
Christopher Ragan  Chair, Canada's Ecofiscal Commission
Aaron Wudrick  Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Martha Durdin  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Credit Union Association
Sylviane Lanthier  Chair, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada
Raymond Louie  President, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Is that part of the mandate?

4:45 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships

Mark Bain

That is part of the Canadian model. The private sector will have access to a piece of land or perhaps to a facility for a period of time to carry on its operations, but ownership and control of the facility remain with the government.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Is that something you would see changing? A true public-private partnership can very well be something that is owned and operated by the private sector, but the services are publicly delivered. I take as an example a hospital.

4:45 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships

Mark Bain

It could be that way. That's not part of the current Canadian model, but anything is possible. Any configuration is possible.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Do you have any thoughts on whether it could be changed?

4:45 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships

Mark Bain

What we would usually see in the Canadian model is that we'd call what you're talking about closer to privatization, which would, say, be beyond the bounds of public-private partnership. But any configuration of the public and private sectors owning, operating, and providing services is possible in theory. It depends on the public policy of the day.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You're about out of time.

Can we have the researchers get us that? I'm not sure they'd call it a definition—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

I would.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

—but I would like to see that spelled out myself, that public-private partnership. Could we have the researchers get that for the committee?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Yes, Mr. Chair, because I think there are some opportunities for that to be expanded.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay.

We'll turn to Mr. Ouellette for five minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you very much for coming, everyone. I really appreciate the opportunity to question some of you.

My first question will be for Mr. Simon Brault.

The Canada Council for the Arts does actually have a bit of an elitist—what's the word I would use?—myth around it, perhaps, but could you tell us whether it's actually an elitist organization? How many artists do you actually touch? Is it easy for artists to actually gain access to some of these funds?

4:45 p.m.

Director and Chief Executive Officer, Director's Office, Canada Council for the Arts

Simon Brault

It's not easy. We're supporting every year 2,000 artists, more or less, and 2,000 organizations.

It's not easy because it's highly competitive, not because it's elitist. The awarding of grants is made with recommendations coming from peer assessment. It's artists coming together from all over the country and assessing what are the most promising projects.

In a sense it's not elitist, because the rule is the authenticity, the talent, and the vision in the project, and not a person's social background and all of that. I guess when people think about arts as elitist, they are referring more to art forms such as opera and classical music and all of that, which have traditionally been offered to patrons with means, but this is something that is absolutely changing. Right now, there's a huge trend for the democratization of culture, so no, I would not qualify that as elitist, but—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

So if you actually did get more funding, is there a means for...? For instance, in the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, they have young researcher awards, where they can actually gain access to more of those funds. Do you have that as well?

4:45 p.m.

Director and Chief Executive Officer, Director's Office, Canada Council for the Arts

Simon Brault

Yes, we want to do that. Last year, 25% of grant recipients were recipients for the first time. There's a renewal. There's access for youth.

I guess what will change in the future is that we want to come forward with different models in terms of support. For example, we want for the first time to be able to offer young artists multi-year projects. It would be predictable, and that would not force young artists to create organizations that become kind of core-funded by the Canada Council.

We're finding new ways that are more adapted to the way this generation is creating right now.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

You also speak about new aboriginal programming. What types of organizations do you support? What types of activities?

There are a lot of aboriginal people, and culture is culture, but western culture has its own traditions and indigenous culture has its own. For instance, would powwows now be eligible to receive funding under that new program?

4:45 p.m.

Director and Chief Executive Officer, Director's Office, Canada Council for the Arts

Simon Brault

With the new program, here's what we did. The Canada Council has had an aboriginal office for 20 years. What we are announcing now is that there will be a program dedicated to first nations, Métis, and Inuit artists, and this program will be informed by self-determination. It means that this program will have features that are completely unique to the program, such as micro grants or the possibility of funding elders, and cultural transmission. We're really moving away from a way to support aboriginal art that has been quite influenced by Eurocentric models to a model that will be more self-determined.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

My final question is for Mr. Morrison.

I just fail to understand with social housing.... The needs seem to be staying the same, but yet we pay the mortgage, we pay some of the maintenance costs, and we pay a subsidy for low-income people. It seems that you're asking that we keep these, yet you have this opportunity to pay off the mortgage over the course of 30 to 40 years.

What I'd want to see is the building and expansion. We'd be giving people a chance to do what it is they're supposed to be doing and managing their things appropriately. If they haven't done so, the government can't hold people's hands.... I think that my issue with social housing sometimes is that my ideal is to expand it. This is what I'm looking for, and what I'm looking for from the partners that I think are going to be partnering with the government. Really, it's making sure that we get more social housing for more people in this country who actually need it.

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association

Jeff Morrison

Sure, and if I may say so, Mr. Chair, we fully agree. One of our three key asks was to look at 100,000 new social housing units across Canada to meet the growing needs.

Let's face it. All you have to do is read the paper any day of the week and you can see what's happening with housing prices in the private market in Canada in Vancouver and Toronto, etc. The private market is not going to be able to meet the needs of the lower income half of our population in this area.

I would add one last point, though. You mentioned that you support the expansion of social housing, and obviously we do as well, but I think there's also a number of really innovative programs within social housing units that are designed to actually get people out of social housing. Ultimately, in the housing spectrum, it's advantageous to see people move into a higher income bracket and therefore move into more of the private market. That's clearly not possible for everybody, but there are some really interesting models in that respect.

I know that social housing is clearly a need for many Canadians, but I think many providers also understand the value in seeing people ultimately move on. Income supplement programs and educational programs, etc., are in place in a number of provider models. That's something we would like to see augmented and scaled up so that additional providers can do similar things.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Jeff.

Ms. Boutin-Sweet, you have three minutes.

February 18th, 2016 / 4:50 p.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We talked about social housing. You did indeed say that CHRA would like the $1.6 billion—even $1.7 billion or $2 billion—kept in social housing. We're talking about money that is already in the system. You aren't the only one to say that. The FCM representatives, who we can see at the back of the room, said the same thing. Big cities, all cities, in fact, share that view.

We've talked a lot about social housing, and now I'd like us to discuss affordable housing.

Last week, you probably heard that the child homelessness rate had jumped by 50% over the last decade. I did just say child homelessness.

In recent years, the vacancy rate has risen slightly and currently sits at about 3% in most cities. That's good, but it doesn't mean the appropriate type of accommodations are available. For instance, people who are single, big families and regular-sized families have a harder time finding housing. In fact, housing is the foundation that many other things depend on, especially health.

If the government wanted to address the housing issue and establish economic and social targets to overcome poverty, do you think a national housing strategy would be useful?

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association

Jeff Morrison

Thank you for the question.

Absolutely.

We know that the government, in its budgetary plan that is coming out in a few weeks, is going to be looking at a short-term investment plan primarily focused on stimulus programs, shovel-worthy projects, possibly green, etc. However, in addition to that, it is absolutely fundamental that we look at this from a longer-term perspective to address a number of the issues you've just raised. That's why, in one of the principles I mentioned in my opening remarks, we feel the strong need to create a forum whereby we can bring together a large range of stakeholders, including the federal government, provincial governments, municipalities, providers, and aboriginal groups, etc., to really define the policy framework for a long-term national housing strategy in Canada.

We've talked this afternoon about a number of options in terms of how funding could go and how that could be sliced up among the number of different possibilities, but essentially we need to sit down with the range of stakeholders and say, “Okay, 10 years out, what would that policy framework look like? What are the investment targets? What is the accountability? What are the measures of whether that program has been successful?”

As an organization, CHRA is making ourselves available to act as a convenor, a forum, to create that space. We soon will be in talks with CMHC to see if we can essentially operationalize that. Frankly, we're hoping for the support of this committee for that concept, so that we can really flesh out in a collaborative fashion what a long-term housing strategy would look like.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you.

We have a little time left. It would be a little bit out of order, but I know that Mr. Aboultaif and Mr. Champagne, the parliamentary secretary, sat through most of these meetings and never got a question, so if we could split our time....

Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead for a couple of minutes, and then we'll hear from Mr. Champagne.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Thank you.

I have a very short question for Monsieur Lavoie.

I've always been curious about the productivity level among Canadian manufacturers, at least in comparison to the rest of the industrialized world, knowing that when your dollar is up, you upgrade your manufacturing facilities and equipment, and that when your dollar is down, you're ready to go out exporting and creating jobs. Is this happening in Canada? Also, can you please brief us on the productivity level in Canada? If you can be precise, I would really appreciate that.

4:55 p.m.

Director, Business Tax and Innovation, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters

Martin Lavoie

First of all, the relationship I make with investment and capacity is not necessarily the value of the dollar; it's cash flow. If you have more cash flow, usually you drive more investment.

Yes, it's true that a lot of equipment is imported, but at the same time, if you have cash flow issues you're not going to be able to buy much. There is an effect, but it's not entirely the only effect.

On productivity, you are right. For one hour worked in Canada right now we produce $44 worth of goods. If you compare that to companies in Germany, France, and the U.S.A., they are all at about $58 per hour. Yes, it's about quality of life, but really what it's about is, if this is worth $44 and I take an hour to produce it, and if I compete against Germans in Germany, they can make 1.5 in the same hour, so multiply that by millions. It means I am not competitive.

It's one thing to sign free trade agreements with all these countries, but it's like going to war with a small gun. If you're not as competitive as they are, they can produce more in less time. Why? Is it because Germany has a weak dollar? They don't. It's because they've invested heavily in equipment and in automation and they also invest heavily in skills. They don't let people drop out of school and stuff like that. They actually put them in something tangible they can do.