Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roch Huppé  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Ted Gallivan  Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigating Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
James Wu  Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:45 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

The provision relates to financial assets—I believe it is in the provision—that the government may acquire. The intent was with respect to currency provisions that may be acquired. The example of U.S. dollars was a clear one. Another one is sterling where the government sold off Chancellor House, I believe it's called, in the U.K. in recent years and acquired a lot of sterling that had to be converted to Canadian dollars, and again over a long period of time.

There was a time frame in which we had exposure to the sterling, because the Canadian government entered the contract and the sale price was determined but the receipt of the funds occurred a number of months later, so there was foreign currency exposure. There was a delay and a question of whether the government should engage in contracts to hedge against that risk.

The nature of the contract is what you could call a forward agreement. You engage with a counterpart, probably a financial institution, to agree upon a future price and exchange rate where you transact the currency. If one were to receive that sterling a number of months later, you'll engage with the financial institution to say, “I will deliver to you this amount of sterling at this set price”, and then they agree to give us a certain amount in Canadian dollars.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I do appreciate it, and I'm not going to belabour the point too much more.

What limits are there on it? One government may use something with the best of intentions and another one may not. What kinds of activities is this limited to? Are there any limitations in the budget implementation act that provide not only the clarity as to what this power bestowed to the minister will do in cases of asset sales, but are we going to start seeing the Minister of Finance holding certain currencies? I just want to know the scope of the activities that we're talking about here and if they're not just limited to asset sales outside of Canada.

4:45 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

It is in respect of the financial position of Canada and assets. The provision is intended for the management of those risks. All I would say is that when the provision was drafted, it was made to be explicitly permissive of hedging transactions like the ones I described.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you. I certainly appreciate that.

Maybe I'll wait and see if there is someone else who has a question.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I think Mr. Ouellette has a question, and then we'll come back to you.

Mr. Ouellette, go ahead.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

Thank you very much, Mr. Wu and Mr. Joshua, for coming here on this very exciting subject.

I was more interested in clause 144, which is amending the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act by adding proposed subsections 35(1) and 35(2). Proposed subsection 35(1) would allow the CMHC to “maintain in its own name one or more accounts with the Bank of Canada.” Proposed subsection 35(2) would allow the Bank of Canada to “pay interest on any money that the [CMHC] deposits with it.”

How would these proposed changes improve the management of federal funds, financial oversight, and the operations of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation?

4:50 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

Again, these two provisions are intended to allow the Bank of Canada to provide custodial services to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Custodial services are basically when a financial institution safeguards assets. In this case, it would be predominantly Government of Canada securities. The CMHC already has a custodian, but it would like to have more options for custodial service providers, and in this case it would be the Bank of Canada. What the Bank of Canada would do is hold a portion of CMHC's assets—again, Government of Canada securities—to safeguard it for transactions.

This facilitates, for example.... If the CMHC were in need of liquidity for certain smaller operational issues, it could post that collateral with the Bank of Canada and receive liquidity. It could use that collateral, in essence, in a loan from the Bank of Canada. Technically, it's actually sold for a short duration, but then it's reversed. That's an example of a repurchase agreement transaction as a type of transaction to facilitate the operations of the CMHC.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

So it offers more opportunity for the CMHC to use different providers.

4:50 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

Would this reduce cost?

4:50 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

Potentially, but cost is not necessarily one of the drivers. The desire was to have more options.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

I just have a bit of a fun question. We talk about currency here. Can the Canadian government hold Bitcoin in gold?

4:50 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

I think that's a bit beyond my purview.

Bitcoin is an interesting question. It's not part of the considerations we have. The market itself is being studied by the Bank of Canada, but it's not within our ambit right now.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Robert, this is the finance committee. “Fun” isn't in our lexicon.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

This is always fun, Mr. Chair. They're having a great time.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Albas, go ahead.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

You looked at me and said this is not fun, Mr. Chair. I understand that.

We talk about fiscal agents and the terms and conditions when they are dealing with debt issues, etc. Does what you're talking about in that particular clause basically allow the finance minister to make payments on things past March 31? If it was anticipated in the previous fiscal year, but the actual deal was concluded outside the supply period, this would then allow the minister, without having to come back to Parliament for that supply, to be able to go outside of parliamentary vote. Is that the intention here?

4:50 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

No. That certainly was not the intention. Again, the intention was to ensure that the government could pay back investors who have invested in Government of Canada securities, especially in certain jurisdictions where our fiscal agents have specific terms that appear to limit such obligations of repayment after a certain time. There was no intention or consideration of the issues you identified.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Why does the government need new statutory authority if it is already doing this on a regular basis and has done it for quite a long time? Are money transfers or e-transfers just not being used?

4:50 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

Yes, there are certain occasions, especially with bearer bonds that are issued in foreign jurisdictions, where it's a bit more of a manual process in terms of redemptions and seeking repayment. There are occasions that have come up where this question has arisen. In the review of the legislation, it was viewed that the broader authorities to make payments were sufficient, but for greater clarity we were advised to propose an amendment like this—greater clarity that the government, the minister, could indeed pay off those loans.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay, everyone's satisfied.

Thank you very much, Mr. Wu and Mr. Joshua, for coming in two or three times now before we finally got to you.

Just before I go to Mr. Duvall, who I said we would allow to lift the motion, for the information of the committee, I would recommend that the deadline for each party or member to submit to the clerk their proposed recommendations to the pre-budget consultation report in both official languages be Tuesday, November 29 at 3:30 p.m. sharp. That way the clerk can get the recommendations compiled and distributed to members later that day. We'll then be considering the draft report on Wednesday, November 30 and Thursday, December 1.

Agreed?

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

All right, the floor is open.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Scott Duvall NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Yesterday, I moved a motion that you found in order. We opened it up for debate, and we were immediately asked to adjourn debate. I'm back here today to see if we can resume the consideration of this debate and speak to the motion.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You have the floor.