Finance Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2017

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to express my disappointment with this motion that has been brought before us. As you can clearly see, it is long, drafted in both official languages, and very well written. So it was not written on the edge of the table while we debated the merits of the bill and its drafting.

It is very disappointing that we have been forced to waste two hours of our time and that of the people who have travelled here and who no doubt studied the matter for hours before coming to testify before our committee. All of them made the effort to inform us as best they could. In the end, we are unfortunately faced with this motion asking us to bring our business to a complete halt and recommend to the House that we not proceed further with our consideration of Bill C-240.

I think we could have made a diligent effort during the clause-by-clause consideration in light of what we have heard today. I am extremely disappointed with the attitude of the member who introduced this motion. I think that, as legislators, we could have made a real effort with the clause-by-close consideration. Each of us could have put things on the table and tried to do the job we are called upon to do, which is to prepare the best possible legislative proposals. That is definitely not what we are seeing on the other side of this table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Boy, am I ever glad Mr. Liepert wasn't part of the former caucus of the Conservative Party, because he probably wouldn't have liked it.

In terms of the position here today, I think we can all agree around the table in terms of the intent of increasing participation in first aid programs. Mr. May himself testified here today that there are limitations in terms of what can and cannot be achieved in private members' business, and that there have to be further enhancements or incentives to have people come forward and take this necessary first aid training.

However, good intentions, given the limitations around private members' business, unfortunately do not always come forward with legislation that meets the objectives of good, sound tax policy. That was the intent when the House sent this piece of legislation to this committee: the intention is good, so we were to look at it further as a finance committee and ensure that it meets the objectives of sound tax policy.

I can't speak to how other members and other caucuses prepare for their meetings. Any question or faint disdain for our preparedness on this is, I think, the other member's prerogative. However, I am proud of the conversations that we've had as Liberal members. I'm proud of the back-and-forth and the research. Each member came here today asking questions, researching this, and speaking with Mr. May. That was in his testimony as well. I find it quite rich of the opposition to come here to criticize us for being prepared in how to act in moving forward on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Let's stick to “Be it resolved”, if we could.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Fair enough, Mr. Chair.

With regard to tax policy, I supported this coming to the House...excuse me; in the vote in the House, I supported this coming to committee. I support the intent wholeheartedly.

However, hearing testimony, doing the research, I have to look at this as a member of this committee and as an MP serving my constituents. Would an investment of $17 million create the incentives for more people to come forward and take first aid courses? Even if we use Mr. May's statistics that around 50% of people may receive this from their employers and therefore wouldn't need to access this, even if you take $8.5 million—let's cut it in half—as a cost for a $15 to $17 credit, I had to seriously think about this, because I think that although there's value there for anyone who is encouraged to take first aid training, I have to go back to my constituents as a member of the finance committee and as a member of this House. Is a $17-million or an $8.5-million expenditure fiscally responsible for a $15 to $17 credit? To my Conservative members, listen up. This credit is only applicable to some members of the public.

To Mr. May's credit, he acknowledges that he wishes it could have been more expensive, but those are the limitations of a private member's bill. It would be irresponsible, just because we like the intent, to spend by any means. If that's the Conservative will...they love boutique tax credits, but they're no longer in government.

It is our job, in my opinion, to look at intentions and to be fiscally prudent. As much as I support the intent and encourage our government to look at ways to increase participation, as the bill stands—and that's all that's in front of us here today—I have to support the motion put forward by Mr. Sorbara because, unfortunately, the fiscal parameters, to my mind, do not create the incentive we want. It's a price that I think is unfair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Mr. Albas is next.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the interest of time, I'm going to make my comments as quickly as possible.

First of all, fiscal prudence is important, and I'm glad to hear that the Liberal Party, which has sunk us into twice the amount of deficit this year, is talking about fiscal discipline. In real testimony that we heard today, we also did talk about the social value in having Canadians able to help their fellow Canadians.

We heard Mr. May specifically say, “If it saves one life....” More than just dollars are at stake. It's unfortunate that we would have such an extensive motion dropped on us before we had.... Obviously this was prepared ahead of time. I find that certain members who did vote for this originally in the House.... Mr. Chair, there was considerable support for this in the House of Commons. For us to simply drop this I think is ill-measured. However, that's part of democracy. I will not be supporting this motion as it stands.

I also want to thank Mr. May for coming today, presenting what I felt was his argument about boutique tax credits and how this is available to every Canadian. I think it shows he is trying to do something that would have a wide subscription.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The last one I have on my list is Mr. Sorbara.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Quickly to Mr. Liepert, we didn't delay looking at this bill. We were working on pre-budget submissions and so forth—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

No, we didn't delay.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

No, we didn't, and I want to add to the record that when this bill came to the House, I voted against it. Yes, I did. I did vote against it, and—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Your colleagues did not.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I did vote against it for the reasons—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Sorbara, you have the floor.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

On that level, I've always believed in a tax system that is simpler and more efficient, but obviously I do wish to acknowledge Mr. May's work on this issue. It's laudable, and we all support increasing the number of Canadians taking CPR. In my personal view, this is just not the best means to do that.

I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

All those in favour—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

We want a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will have a recorded vote, Madam Clerk.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

The motion is carried.

Go ahead, Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Since the motion has just been agreed to, I suppose the House will have to ratify it.

Could the clerk inform us on that point?

[The Clerk]

As the motion has carried, the report the committee tables in the House will have to include the text of the motion. Then-

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

The report will have to be adopted?

[The Clerk]

That is correct, and it will be debated in the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Do we need a motion, though, to report it to the House?

[The Clerk]

I believe it happens automatically.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It happens automatically. Okay, it's understood. If it was clause by clause, I know we need a motion to report it to the House. It's understood, correct? Okay.

Mr. Albas, you have two motions, I believe.