Evidence of meeting #85 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Trevor McGowan  Senior Legislative Chief, Legislative Review, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Pierre Mercille  Senior Legislative Chief, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Gervais Coulombe  Acting Chief, Excise Policy, Sales Tax Division, Department of Finance
James Greene  Director, Business Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Pierre LeBlanc  Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Patrick Halley  Director, International Trade Policy Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Laura Bourns  Senior Economist, International Trade Policy Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Nicolas Moreau  Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
James Wu  Chief, Financial Institutions Analysis, Department of Finance

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

The current stock of debt at the federal level is $691 billion.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

And the crowns?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

To that you need to add the crowns—

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Yes. What is that?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

—which is $276 billion.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Do you have a breakdown of the crowns' debts?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

I don't have it with me, but—

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

No, but could you supply it?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

Yes, of course.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

I wouldn't mind knowing what that is.

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

Of course, we have that.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

What is the interest rate we would be borrowing this money at?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

I don't have the number for this year, but for 2016, the average rate for our borrowing program was 0.6%, so 60 basis points.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

0.6?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

Yes, 0.6. The overall interest rate of our total stock of debt at the federal level is around 2% right now, so 200 basis points. The overall cost of our debt, on average is around 2%.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

That's 2% of our budget?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

No, not 2% of our budget. I'm talking about the interest rate cost. As a share of our budget spending, I'll need to check that number, but it's not something I would be....

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

I needed clarity on those numbers.

I'm fine, Mr. Chair.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Sorry for the confusion here. We're doing two things at once.

Are there any further questions to the...?

Mr. Dusseault.

May 8th, 2017 / 6:25 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I want to take another look at the figures.

We talked about $690 billion for the public debt.

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

It's $691 billion.

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Let's add the crown corporations' debt, which amounts to $276 billion.

We're missing some amounts. Are the remaining amounts pension responsibilities?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

I'm talking here about the Canadian government and crown corporation market debt, which is different from public debt. Public debt includes the government's debt and financial needs for pensions that aren't already fully accounted for by a debt program. Therefore, this figure isn't included here. The figure I'm talking about, in relation to the borrowing limit, includes all the borrowing for the Canadian government and crown corporation market debt.

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I calculated $691 billion plus $276 billion.

6:25 p.m.

Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Nicolas Moreau

Your calculation is missing the financial needs for the next three years. The federal government has a public deficit and other needs in relation to the debt payments, which amount to $103 billion, in total, over the next three years. We must then add the amount already included in the crown corporations' plans, meaning $43 billion over the next three years, and a contingency reserve of 5%, which is $56 billion. The total equals the amount established.