Evidence of meeting #95 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pbo.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenn Campbell  Assistant Deputy Minister, Canada Infrastructure Bank Transition Office, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Matt de Vlieger  Acting Director General, Strategic Policy and Planning, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Karine Paré  Executive Director, Cost Management, Finance Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Duncan Shaw  Director, Employment Insurance Part II Benefits & Measures, Employment Programs Policy & Design, Skills & Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Trevor McGowan  Senior Legislative Chief, Legislative Review, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Jenna Robbins  Chief, Employment and Education Section, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Mathieu Bourgeois  Tax Policy Advisor, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Michèle Govier  Chief, Trade Rules, International Trade Policy Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Allen Sutherland  Assistant Secretary, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
Don Booth  Director, Strategic Policy, Privy Council Office

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Liepert.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

No.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Are there any other questions?

Mr. Albas. I knew there was someone.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Previous governments have cancelled the escalator because of what it did to the industry. The committee heard from witnesses who saw the spirits industry levelled, and they had to let go of a lot of people.

We're here to listen and pay attention to those things. Again, we heard at committee that there has been a 125% increase in the excise tax since the 1980s, so it's not like this has been.... That's just one form of taxation. Add on to it the provincial markups, which continue to irritate and cause all sorts of angst.

I do respect all honourable members in this place, but once you get out to the different municipalities and communities or to other parts of the country that depend heavily on these things, you're going to hear a much different story from what you have put here today.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Shall clause 42 carry?

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I would like a recorded vote.

(Clause 42 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Is there any discussion on clause 43?

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

I would like a recorded vote.

(Clause 43 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Shall clause 44 carry on division?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

No, I would like a recorded vote.

(Clause 44 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

May we consider clauses 45 to 48 together?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

On division.

(Clauses 45 to 48 inclusive agreed to on division)

(On clause 49)

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Dusseault.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

After we took on beer, clause 49 is now targeting spirits. We're moving from one target to the next one. This time, through clause 49, the government is deciding to target spirits. The government is imposing increases based on inflation, according to the same cumulative principle, as of April 1, 2018.

Again, I must say the industry representatives were very clear on this issue. They said it would harm their industry, particularly the spirits industry. The level of regulation is a heavy burden for the industry. People must comply with multiple rules resulting from the Excise Act, 2001 and other regulations, including provincial regulations, to sell a single litre of spirits in a business in Canada.

Again, we're harming an important industry in Canada, an industry that's growing and that has already demonstrated its worth. I'm thinking in particular of Canadian whisky, which was referred to in certain testimonies.

After targeting beer, we're letting spirits get caught up in the indefinite cycle of cumulative inflation.

Our colleagues across the way will defend this idea by saying they were elected. However, I want to point out that, in 2019, they may not be re-elected, yet these indefinite increases will continue. We say no taxation without representation. After 2019, my friend who voted in favour of this may no longer be here, but the legislation will continue to apply. Over the years, the taxes will increase based on the cumulative inflation. The inflation could be 2%, but it could also be 20%, as you said, Mr. Chair. We don't know. We can't predict the future.

I find it completely irresponsible to impose increases in excise duties indefinitely without giving Parliament the chance to vote again on the issue. I'll oppose the clause. This time, it's spirits. What will be targeted next? Wine?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Is there anyone else?

Mr. Albas, and then Mr. Ouellette.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

We had a debate not too long ago with Ben Lobb's bill in the House. He was talking about reducing the cost, partly because producers in the United States do not pay the same high excise tax that we do here in Canada, and it is the same with the Europeans.

As we continue to live longer, etc., just to your point about health and whatnot.... I'm not even going to go into the argument of harm and all that stuff. I'll stay very focused.

Makers in British Columbia, such as Victoria Distillers, have said that they have not been able to break into the American market as strongly as they want to because their cost is so much higher. They were looking for excise relief.

Let's not forget, though, that they would be able to buy more Canadian products from Canadian farmers and would be able to produce them here. These are groups like Maple Leaf Spirits on Naramata Road in Penticton. It used to be all wineries on the Naramata Bench. There are some of these artisan spirits and distillers who are trying to make a go of it, and it's very difficult under that regulatory environment.

As I said, if you look at what happened with the wine industry when 100% Canadian content was made exempt, we now have hundreds of wineries across the country. When we actually made some excise relief for beer, the microbrewery movement went up tremendously. I would suggest that this is going to really harm the spirits manufacturers, whether they be big or small.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Ouellette.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB

We just voted on clauses 45 and 46 that were about taxing cigarettes, which we know are very harmful to people's health. When you read the literature concerning les spiritueux, the absolute ethanol alcohol, or spirits, you find, when you deal with the court system, that in some places 95% of people are in the court system because of their relationship with alcohol. It has a huge impact on many communities. We pass many laws in the criminal justice system in order to deal with the problems related to that. I know it's not the fault of the spirits makers, manufacturers, or whatever name we give to them—sorry; I'm not familiar with the industry too much in the sense that I'm not a manufacturer of spirits or ethanol alcohol—but it does have an impact.

We have to think about that impact and how to curb it in some way. If we make it too inexpensive, people will abuse it. When they abuse it, they end up in the court system, and then we end up with many other problems that we're trying to deal with here in Parliament day in and day out and even in my community.

For me, I support this measure. I just can't support this industry in the way that you on the opposition side would like. I respect that, but it's just not something I believe we should encourage wholeheartedly. I think we have to take a bit more of a circumspect view of it.

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you all for your points.

Mr. Badawey.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

This is just a quick question. I do apologize; I was going to call for it earlier, but it slipped by me. Is there any chance of having a recorded vote on clause 45?

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

No, we're too late on clause 45 now.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

We're too late. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You have to call for it prior to the vote.

Is there any further discussion on clause 49?

Do you want a recorded vote?

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I would like a recorded vote, please.

(Clause 49 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I will inform the committee, because we are going well into the night, we will suspend for 15 minutes at six o'clock so people can take a health break and get a bite to eat.

(On clause 50)

Mr. Dusseault.