Evidence of meeting #15 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michelle Kovacevic  Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Andrew Marsland  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Soren Halverson  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Frank Vermaeten  Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Cliff C. Groen  Assistant Deputy Minister, Benefits Delivery Services, Service Canada - Benefit Delivery Services Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Elisha Ram  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Eric Janse  Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate, House of Commons
Stéphan Aubé  Chief Information Officer, Digital Services and Real Property, House of Commons

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

This is for the Department of Finance, probably Andrew. Press *1, please.

Andrew Marsland, your line is open.

I'm not hearing anyone. Mr. Marsland, are you there?

2:55 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Andrew Marsland

Yes, I am, Mr. Chair.

I must admit that I don't have direct knowledge of the work, but I do know there's a lot of work going on to examine the issues and the potential responses to those issues faced by particular sectors. I'm not in a position to indicate at what point the government may announce measures on that.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We're coming back to you, Mr. Cumming.

I might state at this time as well that Ms. Koutrakis is next.

James, we won't take away the time it took to dilly around there.

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I want to re-address that, then. Surely there must be someone on this call.... It was indicated by the minister that it is hours or days away. There must be a way to give people in Alberta and Saskatchewan some reasonable timetable as to when we can expect something.

Is there anybody else on this call who can answer that question?

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Is there anybody from any of the three agencies, or for that matter the parliamentary secretary, who has further information on this? I know it's a concern. If not, we'll go to another question.

Go ahead, Soren.

2:55 p.m.

Soren Halverson Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

I would just add to what Andrew Marsland said, that there are some broadly based programs that support businesses, which have been announced under the business credit availability program. They include the Canada emergency business account, in addition to loan guarantees and lending programs from Export Development Canada and the Business Development Bank of Canada.

Those programs are available. Oil and gas firms and firms that support them are fully eligible to participate in those supports. That is in addition to other measures that the government would actively be considering as it looks across the economy and considers how best to support other aspects of the business sector.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

What we've heard from the sector is that those programs are woefully inadequate for what's going on in Alberta.

I'll switch gears. What I've been hearing from small businesses is that they need cash and they need it now. Most of the programs are a deferral, a partial wage subsidy or further debt. Is the department considering the offer we made of refunding the GST remittances to small businesses that it has collected in the last six months, so they can have cash flow into their businesses now? It would be a process that could be moved on very quickly.

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

That will end your round, Mr. Cumming.

Could we have somebody from the Department of Finance or the Canada Revenue Agency answer that question?

There's no response to that.

On your question, Mr. Cumming, I would just say to departmental officials from all departments to take those ideas under consideration. Regarding the question on the oil and gas industry, we're all hearing a request from that industry and the dire situation it's in. The minister should be noted on that.

We'll turn to Ms. Koutrakis, and then we'll come back to Mr. Ste-Marie.

Go ahead, Ms. Koutrakis.

April 2nd, 2020 / 3 p.m.

Liberal

Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome everyone. Thank you for your tremendous efforts to ensure that our economy remains on track and starts to grow again when this crisis ends.

My question today—I hope to get two questions in, actually—is on gaps in the emergency response measures.

I have heard from my constituents, as many of us on this committee have, concerns regarding potential gaps in the emergency response measures announced by the government, particularly the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, as well as the wage subsidy, that may result in certain individuals or groups of individuals not receiving necessary financial support. Some examples are part-time workers, contract workers, students and recent graduates.

How does the ministry of finance plan on monitoring the CERB and the CEWS for potential gaps in support? Once gaps in support are identified, how will the ministry of finance address these gaps in a timely manner?

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Who can take that on, the Department of Finance? If anyone from any of the departments wants to give an answer to that question, press *1.

Maybe you could come with another question, Annie, while they're thinking about this one, and we could get them both answered at once. Go ahead.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC

Okay. The next one is for the Canada Revenue Agency. It's addressing the limited capacity of the CRA and the employment insurance system.

There are concerns that the CRA and the EI system may be overwhelmed with the number of applications for EI as well as the CERB. To what extent will the newly announced 75% wage subsidy relieve some of the stress on the CRA and the EI system? Also, are there any measures being put in place to address the backlog of applications in the system?

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

That's to the CRA or ESDC.

Frank Vermaeten, I believe you're on. Go ahead, Frank.

3:05 p.m.

Frank Vermaeten Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Thank you very much. Thanks for that question.

Certainly we are preparing ourselves for a high volume of applications, should it be necessary to process a high volume of applications.

The CRA is used to dealing with high volumes. During the tax filing season, we see millions of returns. During the last two or three days, we can typically receive six million tax returns. That kind of high volume is something we are used to.

We've set up the application system to be automated, so you can apply through My Account, through the portals. You can also apply through an automated phone service by putting in your social insurance number and a bit of information. You can apply that way. In that sense, we're going to be able to deal with a high volume. We've also put in place additional call agents to be able to deal with phone calls if people have any questions.

The good thing is that we're also partnering with Service Canada so that both systems are in place. Generally speaking, the people who are EI-eligible will tend to go to Service Canada to apply there for the CERB, while people who are not EI-eligible—mainly the self-employed, contract workers, gig economy workers and perhaps those who don't have a strong attachment to the labour force—would come over to the Canada Revenue Agency for their applications. In that way we will be spreading the load.

With respect to the wage subsidy, it's certainly welcome. We'll be administering that as well. We expect, of course, that the wage subsidy will result in more people returning to work more quickly, as well as receiving wages from their employers even if they're not working. In that sense, the workload we would have from the CERB would be reduced.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you all.

Before I go to Mr. Ste-Marie, Mr. Vermaeten, as I understand it, it's extremely important that people register on CRA My Account now. Don't wait until the last moment; register and set up your direct deposit. That will help the efficiency of the system later. Is that correct?

3:05 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Frank Vermaeten

Yes. I think that's very true. Certainly, there are going to be both avenues to apply for the CERB: My Account and using the phone with the automated system. That said, if people have signed up for My Account, and signed up for direct deposit, they're going to get their money more quickly, particularly with signing up for direct deposit. Certainly, to prepare ahead of time is something we always advocate: sign up for direct deposit, not just for this benefit, but for all benefits. You get your money faster and it's safer.

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you all for that.

We're at two-and-a-half-minute rounds for the next two questioners. Mr. Ste-Marie is first, and then Mr. Julian.

Mr. Ste-Marie.

3:10 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

My question is for the person who just responded and it concerns the same topic.

I'm very concerned about access to the emergency benefits. In some remote areas, the Internet service is so slow that it prevents people from being able to register online. In Quebec, 20% of the population is illiterate, and 30% of the population is functionally illiterate. As we know, some older workers have no understanding of computers. All these people will have difficulty registering. However, the Service Canada offices are closed, and the telephone lines aren't working properly. There are even issues with the telephone lines for members of Parliament.

What's being done to fix this? How can we ensure that everyone who needs the emergency benefit can apply for it?

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We're back to you, Mr. Vermaeten.

3:10 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Frank Vermaeten

Thank you. Am I still on the line?

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You are. Your line is open.

3:10 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Frank Vermaeten

Good.

Thanks for that question. Let me assure you that people will be able to put in an application using a toll-free automated telephone system that will be able to handle more than one million applications a day. That's for those who don't want to use the Internet, but instead want to use their phone.

We will also ensure that those people who need help using the phone system.... You could imagine a situation where someone maybe has difficulty understanding English or French, or maybe the recording is too fast for that person. If they call our call centre, we're going to be able to help them right on the spot with the IVR, the automated phone system, and we can do it together by doing the attestation verbally. We're going to provide that support. In order to get ready for that day, we're making an extra 2,000 agents available dedicated exclusively to the CERB, to answer questions and to help people through the IVR if necessary.

Is it possible that people can still get a busy signal? It's always possible, depending on what time they call. If everyone is calling at the same time, at 10 in the morning, yes, it's absolutely possible. What we're trying to do, if you look at the website, is encourage people to put in their application based on their birthday. It's not required, but, for people who can wait, we're encouraging those who have a birthday between January and March to apply on the Monday, those who have a birthday between April and June to apply on the Tuesday, and so on for Wednesday and Thursday, and then everyone could apply on the other days. That's not a requirement, but a suggestion to make it a more orderly process, just to ensure that people do get the best possible service.

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, both.

We'll now turn to Mr. Julian, and then to Mr. Cooper.

Mr. Julian.

3:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Chair, thank you very much. I have two questions.

The first question is on the issue of the universal benefit. I am hearing very clearly that the government has the ability to process millions of tax returns at a similar time. I just don't understand why we are going to be spending so much time rejecting a certain percentage of the emergency benefit applications. Very many people fall through the cracks.

I think this is a point that's been made by all of the parties. We need to have this benefit universal and get money out to people who need it. Are there any technical barriers for the government? There does not appear to be, because we're able to process this much more easily.

The second issue is around what people are calling the courage benefit, or danger pay, for front-line workers. We're talking about nurses, other health care workers and cleaners, service workers, bus and transit operators, shelter workers, firefighters, police officers. Is there any consideration being given to using the Canada workers benefit to provide a 20% top-up of their wages, and making sure, of course, that everyone receives at least a $15 minimum wage? Is the Department of Finance looking into that courage benefit for people who are working hard now to get us through the crisis but are putting their health at risk?

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

This may require answers from two departments. Who wants to start off?

Is any answer forthcoming?

We can always turn to you, Andrew. Is there anyone who can take a stab at that one?

3:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

If the answer is that there is no technical obstruction to the universal benefit, I think we have the answer.

The issue of using the Canada workers benefit to top up the wages for front-line workers is something that, if the Department of Finance is not considering it, it should be considering it. These workers are continuing our country at risk to themselves. Many of them are paid below what should be a $15 federal minimum wage.