Evidence of meeting #30 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Simon Kennedy  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Mark Farrant  Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Juries Commission
Keith Sullivan  President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers
Paul-Émile Cloutier  President and Chief Executive Officer, HealthCareCAN
Amanjit Lidder  Senior Vice-President, Taxation Services, MNP LLP
Carol Stephenson  Chair of the Board of Governors, Stratford Festival
Phillip Crawley  Publisher, President and Chief Executive Officer, Toronto, The Globe and Mail
Jerry Dias  President, Unifor
Jennifer Robson  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Anita Gaffney  Executive Director, Stratford Festival
Kim Drever  Regional Tax Leader, Edmonton, MNP LLP
Bradly Wouters  Executive Vice-President for Science and Research, University Health Network, and Representative, HealthCareCAN
Jeremy Rudin  Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
Ben Gully  Assistant Superintendent, Regulation Sector, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I officially call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30. It's the first panel of three today of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, March 24, the committee is meeting on the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Today's meeting is taking place by video conference, and the proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So that you are aware, the website will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

With that, we will welcome our witnesses. We're privileged to have today the Honourable Mary Ng, Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade. With her are several officials from the Department of Finance and the Department of Industry.

With that, Madam Minister, I'll give you the floor. You have an opening statement, and from there we'll go to questions.

So that everybody knows, so they can think about it in the meantime, the first questioner will be Mr. Cumming followed by Mr. Fraser.

The floor is yours, Madam Minister.

3:05 p.m.

Markham—Thornhill Ontario

Liberal

Mary Ng LiberalMinister of Small Business

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with this committee about some of our government's supports for Canada's small business owners and entrepreneurs.

Small businesses are at the very heart of our communities across the country, and they are truly the backbone of our national economy. They employ 8.3 million hard-working Canadians and account for nearly seven out of every 10 private sector jobs in our country.

Therefore, when this pandemic hit, we knew that we needed to do everything possible to help them here in Canada. We remain steadfast to ensure that these small businesses that are the pillars of our towns, our cities and our neighbourhoods get support during this difficult time.

Mr. Chair, over the past several months my team and I have spoken with thousands upon thousands of small business owners and entrepreneurs in every sector and region across Canada. We heard that our response to COVID-19 needs to be flexible and balanced.

It needs to be flexible because the situation we currently face is truly unprecedented, and there really is no template to work from. Circumstances and challenges are still evolving, and at a rapid pace. Our response also needs to be balanced, because we need to meet the needs of all small business owners during these challenging times. There is no one-size-fits-all approach to relief.

Small businesses, because of their size, are often more entrepreneurial, more nimble and very in touch with their customers and communities. This is often the key to their success, but it also makes them vulnerable during turbulent times like the one that we are facing right now in a global pandemic.

When Canadians are asked to stay at home and they’re not able to eat out at their favourite restaurant, go to an appointment at their physiotherapist's or their salon or travel and stay at a hotel or bed and breakfast, there is an impact on those businesses. If you’re an entrepreneur who has invested everything in a community theatre or a pub or a bakery or your technology, you're absolutely feeling the brunt of COVID-19. You have probably had to close your doors, and your sales have probably taken a huge hit. Indeed, for many they've disappeared entirely.

When people are asked to stay at home, they’re likely to also hold off on purchases, so if you’re a business that sells technology, furniture or jewellery, you’ve also taken a hit. Then there are service providers that we normally interact with every day: our dry cleaners, our yoga studios, fitness studios, day cares and hair salons. They’re feeling the effects of having to temporarily close their doors. If you are in a business that moves people or goods, like our taxi drivers or our delivery service workers, your revenue has been impacted too.

The harsh reality is that the majority of our entrepreneurs and small business owners have faced serious challenges, and this happened almost overnight for them.

For a small business to get over the challenges of this pandemic, they’re likely facing at least three major threats: keeping their teams together, keeping their costs low and covering their operating expenses. Our government has taken serious and decisive action to address each of these threats.

Mr. Chair, I grew up in a small business. I know that this is often a family affair. Seventy-five per cent of Canadian small businesses have fewer than 10 employees. You often know each other's birthdays, kids’ names and spouses. From my own experience and through conversations with small business owners, I know that employers often think of their teams as extended family. I also know that in order for a business to remain resilient through this difficulty and recover more quickly after this challenging time, the team must stay together.

That is why one of our most important initiatives is the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Through this subsidy, we are going to keep more Canadians employed by covering 75% of those wages. This will be a key support as we enter the restart phase, and we’re extending the wage subsidy for an extra three months, until the end of August.

We're also helping over 3.2 million businesses and self-employed Canadians to keep their costs low by allowing them to defer GST, HST and customs duty payments. In addition, they can keep more money in their pockets over the next number of weeks and months because we're extending the tax filing deadline and allowing businesses to defer any payments, if they owe any, until August 31, again helping them keep their costs low so that they can have that extra flexibility to manage that cash flow.

To entrepreneurs across the country, we also know that covering your operating costs, like rent and utilities, is an incredible challenge right now, so through the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance, we've partnered with provinces and territories to reduce rent by 75% for businesses experiencing incredible hardships for the months of April, May and June, and starting next Monday, May 25, applications for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance will be opened.

We know that business owners and landlords can work through those details now through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Those details are already available, and they can start looking at them and be ready for when the application opens next week.

Rent, of course, is not an area of federal responsibility, but the success of businesses, frankly, is the responsibility of all of us, so we're working hard to make sure that this rent assistance support gets out as quickly as possible. We've also introduced a variety of lending supports available through banks and credit unions to help businesses with their cash flow.

One of these is the Canada emergency business account, or CEBA. Many of you know about this. It's a $40,000 interest-free loan with up to $10,000 forgivable if they're able to pay it back by the end of 2022, and to date this support has helped over 621,000 businesses and entrepreneurs across the country who have accessed it. It's helping our favourite restaurant to keep its lights on while also switching some of its operations to delivery service. It's helping that furniture store that relies on foot traffic to stay afloat so that it can keep paying the cost of its warehouse space. It means that the local bed and breakfast is maintaining its property even if its doors are temporarily closed. On Tuesday, just a couple of days ago, we announced that this CEBA loan will now be expanded and available to businesses that don't have a minimum $20,000 payroll.

That means that if you're a sole proprietor or a business that relies on contracts or a family-owned firm that pays its employees in dividends, you're now eligible. You need to have a business bank account, a CRA number under which you're filing your tax returns for 2018-2019, and non-deferrable expenses of between $40,000 and $1.5 million. These are non-deferrable expenses like rent, utilities, insurance, salaries, and that sort of thing.

We've certainly heard from the hair salon owners and stylists who rent chairs, the local chiropractor who has a practice but no employees, the farmer who pays himself in dividends but has to pay machinery costs and animal feed. This loan expansion is going to help not only those businesses but thousands more businesses to access this support.

We know that there's still more to do. For those businesses that operate out of a personal bank account and that are too new and have yet to file a tax return, we're working hard to make sure that we have a solution to help them as well through this challenging time. For larger businesses looking to get support through this difficult time, there are other liquidity supports, other loans that are available of up to $12.5 million, also available through financial institutions like banks and credit unions.

We know that all across the country, across every region, businesses need to be supported. Some are not supported through the programs that I just talked about, and because of that we've devoted almost a billion dollars to rural tourism businesses through the regional relief recovery fund, and we've also created supports to help indigenous-owned businesses, young entrepreneurs, innovative and high-growth firms, women entrepreneurs and many, many more.

Mr. Chair, our government has acted quickly. We've introduced broad measures to help small businesses from coast to coast to coast. These measures will help businesses weather the storm, but we know that the introduction of the measures is really just a first step and that businesses are going to continue to need help and support in order to weather this period and make it into the restart.

That's also why we created the Innovation Canada portal and the Business Canada app. It's so that small businesses can navigate through the many supports that we've introduced. We've also partnered with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce to create the Canadian Business Resilience Network so that owners of small businesses can truly get the support they need. It's more than being able to put money out; it's making sure that they also have the support and tools to be able to access the support properly to help them through this time.

I'd like to close by thanking the many small businesses that are providing essential services to our communities through this challenging time. My colleagues and I have heard countless stories of entrepreneurs and communities all across the country going beyond the call of duty and just giving back. I'm so impressed by the resilience of our incredible business owners and what they've done to help each other out through this difficult period. To those hard-working business owners, I want to say thank you.

Mr. Chair, we're all in this together. I appreciate this committee's support for the efforts during this difficult time. As I keep saying everywhere across the country on Zoom calls, just like the one we're having today, we're all here to help our small businesses survive this pandemic and pave the way for our economy to recover. We'll continue doing the hard work together to help save the small businesses of our hard-working Canadians and those jobs across the country.

I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to all of you today. I look forward to taking your questions.

Thank you very much.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will start the first round, which will be six minutes, with Mr. Cumming, followed by Mr. Fraser.

James, the floor is yours.

May 21st, 2020 / 3:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Minister, for appearing today.

Today I am in one of these businesses. I'm sitting in the Wellness Clinic, a business owned by Tami. It has been shut down since March. She has received nothing—nothing, not a single program. She may qualify for the CEBA grant now. She uses contract employees, so she can't be helped with the wage subsidy, and that's not going to help her when she is finally able to restart. One thing she wants to apply for is the rent subsidy. The way the rent subsidy is structured, her landlord does not want to play ball.

Will you consider modifying this rent subsidy to allow greater flexibility between the landlord and the tenant so that these companies can start to receive this rent subsidy?

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Thank you so much, James, for that question. I also want to thank you for all of your great work in representing not only your constituents but indeed Canadians as the critic on small business. Your input and that of Tami's and so many businesses are so important. Indeed, we created the programs that we have by listening to them and listening to the support they need.

I'm pleased that we were able to expand CEBA so that Tami can get access to the $40,000 interest-free loan to help with those operating expenses. Of course, the application will open on Monday for landlords to apply.

Listen, we know how important that rent expense is and what a burden it is for businesses, particularly small businesses like the one you're in that has been closed. I thank businesses like Tami's and everyone's for closing their doors to keep us all safe.

We're going to encourage landlords to take advantage of this program. We've all been in this together. It's remarkable what Canadians have done to help flatten this curve. I'm going to encourage landlords to take advantage of this program so that our small businesses can get that help, that 75% reduction.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Madam Minister, thank you. I have many questions for you. I'd like to be able to move on, if I could.

If CECRA was so important, why was it delayed until June? Why did it take so long to be able to help these businesses?

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

As you know, rent is not an area of federal responsibility, but helping businesses across this country is all of our responsibility. We worked hard with our provincial and territorial counterparts. Together we put forward a program that will provide 75% rent reduction help for those small businesses. We look forward to those landlords taking advantage of this so that together we can help our small businesses.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Madam Minister, I hope you are hearing from landlords like I am. I do not think you're going to get the uptake that you thought you would. With the CEBA program, Tami appreciates that she can apply. It just puts more debt on her business, so it will be very difficult for her.

With CEBA, how many applications have been approved so far?

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

The number is 621,000.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

How many have been rejected?

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

I don't have the number for the rejections.

This was put forward as a 100% loan guaranteed by the federal Government of Canada through the financial institutions. This uptake of 621,000 is really excellent, because that's how many businesses are being helped across the country from coast to coast to coast. I know that with this expansion, it will help even thousands more companies.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

What is the average loan size that has been applied for?

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

I don't have the specifics on the average loan size. I don't know if my deputy is able to share that.

I would say, though, that it's up to $40,000. I certainly know from the businesses that I have talked to that many businesses have taken up all $40,000, while others have taken less than that. I don't know if my deputy has specifics.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Go ahead, Mr. Kennedy.

3:20 p.m.

Simon Kennedy Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Mr. Chair, I don't have that number immediately available, but I'll see if I can get it for the committee as quickly as possible.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay. Provide that to the clerk. That would be helpful.

Go ahead, James.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

That number is a critical number, because if the uptake is predominantly around $40,000, it would tell you that the demand is very great. I think it's an important number to consider, in that you considered the $40,000 when you started initially.

What are the transaction fees that are being charged by the banks to administer this program?

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

I don't have the specifics.

Deputy, do you think you could just share that with the member, please?

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I think Mr. Kennedy went off-line to find the other number. We'll come back.

Oh, there he is. He's back.

Mr. Kennedy, do you have a figure on the transaction fees that the banks are charging?

3:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

I do not have that handy, but I'll come back with that as well.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

It was reported by the Department of Finance before that there was plenty of headroom within the loan program. Can you confirm what the headroom left in the program is?

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

I don't have that either, but I actually do have the answer to your earlier question: It is a 0.4% fee for the banks to administer the Canada emergency business account.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll have to end it there, James. You're on in the next round as well, I gather.

We'll turn now to Mr. Fraser and then to Mr. Ste-Marie.

Go ahead, Sean.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Excellent. Thanks so much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us, and thank you for the work that you have been doing over the past number of weeks and months to help businesses survive this unprecedented pandemic that is causing a disruption in everyone's lives.

Two of the most important words that I think I heard in your opening remarks were “we heard”. You referred to the barbers that you have listened to, some folks working on farms, and other examples. I think that it's important to reflect on the number of extraordinary changes that have been made, often after an initial policy announcement has been done.

My experience in the past few years is that we put a lot of effort into consultation on the front end, tried to land a policy, and weren't particularly flexible after we completed consultation with stakeholders. I have been feeling refreshed at the willingness of the government to listen and shift course where it sees problems that have been highlighted.

I want to see if you can talk about the importance of this exercise in listening and how it's helped develop the policies, particularly when I look at big things like creating a 75% wage subsidy that was previously 10%, and at small things like extending access to those barbers who don't necessarily meet the payroll threshold or allowing credit unions to get money to communities through CEBA. There are probably dozens of changes that I could point to as examples. I want to get your perspective on what it's like to have to iterate as we go through, based on the feedback that we're hearing directly from Canadians who have been affected by this pandemic and who are looking for help from the federal government.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

This truly is unprecedented. You're absolutely right.

We take pride in the way we listen to Canadians in the course of developing policies, programs and funding for the range of supports in the normal course of doing business in government. With the global pandemic, the absolute urgency of getting support out to businesses and Canadians was the focus. We listened to Canadians, literally right from the very beginning, and we continue to listen to those businesses so we can reflect on where there may have been a gap, where something may need to be changed and adapted along the way.

Some of those adaptations also mean making legislative changes. I thank all our colleagues from all sides of the House for coming in and helping us as team Canada to introduce the wage subsidy, as an example. That required legislation for the size of the emergency support package we've had to put out in an effort to support Canadians.

The Canada emergency business account is an example of how we listened to colleagues on this committee and listened to colleagues from all sides who had input and feedback from their own constituents and businesses about what was or wasn't working.

My department, right from the get-go, has a call every single day throughout this entire pandemic. It started with tens of businesses and grew to hundreds of businesses. Now it's over 1,000 businesses, as well as business associations. They talk to my department every single day so we can understand the issues they are facing and the needs they are dealing with. They represent different sectors, so we are making the adaptations, making sure we have invested in their regional development agencies and community futures programs to ensure additional support is there for smaller businesses in rural communities.

We are making sure we are providing support through the industrial research assistance program for those high-growth innovative companies that weren't experiencing the kinds of revenue losses that are calculated by many other companies, but for that sector it is a revenue loss.