Evidence of meeting #42 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Daniel Lapointe  President, Focus OSBL Consulting Service, As an Individual
Joshua Mandryk  Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
Chris Aylward  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

1:05 p.m.

Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Joshua Mandryk

Well, I can—

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'll give Mr. Mandryk equal time to answer there.

Go ahead, Mr. Mandryk.

1:05 p.m.

Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Joshua Mandryk

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've been very careful today to try not to talk about the WE portion of this, because I don't think that's what my concern is here. There are experts who have spoken about that, the participants involved in that who have spoken about the appropriateness or not of giving this to WE.

I'm actually trying to stay out of that fray, because my concerns go far beyond whether WE administers it or whether the public service administers it. My concerns are really about the core of this program and the issues around the exploitation of students and young workers that it raises, whether it's WE or any organization. Certainly I have my own criticisms of that organization, but these criticisms are separate and aside from this and not what I'm here to talk to you about today.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll go on to Mr. Poilievre and then Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Poilievre.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Thank you.

My question is for Mr. Aylward.

First of all, Mr. Aylward, thank you to you and your members for the extraordinary work the public service has done during this pandemic. It is a real testament to their commitment and professionalism. Though we don't always agree with the government's policies, we do commend those who have taken an oath to loyally deliver the programs, and your members have done that, so please give them our thanks.

Are you aware of any federal program that provides students with some compensation for working at non-profits and/or charities?

1:05 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

There are a number of programs for students that are currently being administered by the federal public service that do that type of work. I would defer to my technical expert who is with me, my technical resource, Mr. West. If he is on the line, he could provide a better answer to that.

Howie.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. West, if you're there, go ahead.

1:05 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

Okay, maybe Mr. West is not with us. That's okay.

Mr. Poilievre, I can't give you specific programs that would do that, but as I said, I do know there are several programs administered within the federal public service that address student issues.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Mr. Mandryk, very quickly, are there any programs that come to mind for you?

1:10 p.m.

Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Joshua Mandryk

Sorry. The question is about programs that pay—

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Are there there any programs that basically provide some federally backed compensation or wage subsidy for students to help not-for-profits or charities?

1:10 p.m.

Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Joshua Mandryk

Yes, some of the existing programs do that. They'll provide subsidies to the not-for-profits and charities for the full value of those young workers' wages in order to hire them as employees.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

What program comes to mind?

1:10 p.m.

Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Joshua Mandryk

I believe it's the Canada summer jobs program that does that.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

To the best of my recollection, that program has existed for at least 15 years. I've never heard any complaints about it. If the government just wanted to help cover some compensation for young people to help charities and not-for-profits, why not just boost that program?

1:10 p.m.

Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Joshua Mandryk

That's a great question, and if you do the math on this, it boggles your mind because it seems that the money is there. If you consider the testimony we heard that they were trying to create upwards of 100,000 positions, with up to 500 hours per position, if you paid those folks $15 an hour, the highest minimum wage in Canada, so these folks would be making at or above minimum wage, that would be about $750 million. It leaves a whole lot of money for administration. You could even pay them a bit more than that if you wanted.

It really boggles my mind that it had to be done this way, and it's interesting, because it seems that because they didn't pay these workers properly, so much of this money had to be put into things such as getting teachers to recruit people or getting the agencies to promote it.

I think if you had just paid people a decent wage, you would have avoided a lot of those challenges.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Does the fact that there are pre-existing programs that are well administered by our public servants and well understood by our charitable sector and that those programs were discarded in favour of this directed contribution agreement suggest to you that this entire $912-million contribution agreement was really created for the benefit of the WE Charity, rather than the WE Charity getting involved for the benefit of students?

1:10 p.m.

Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual

Joshua Mandryk

I can't comment on that. I don't know the answer to that. All I can say is that, as I said earlier, I'm not sure why the program was structured the way it was when it seems there could have been other options, such as simply paying these workers a fair wage within the existing funding envelope.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Right.

Is this my last question?

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

This is your last question, Pierre.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

At this point, Mr. Aylward, would you suggest on behalf of your members that this money just be directed to some sort of extended version of the Canada summer jobs program so that students can get some wage assistance to help charities and not-for-profits? Would that be a decent off-ramp, from a public policy point of view, given where we're at?

1:10 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

Yes, for sure—or simply turn this program over to ESDC.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Right. I think you make perfect sense. I was the minister over there for a time, and I remember they had programs that they administered just like this. They could very easily do it again.

Thanks very much. All the very best.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, both.

We'll turn to Mr. Fragiskatos and then Ms. Gaudreau. I think we'll be able to get through the complete list of questioners.

Elizabeth, you want on. You will have time later.

Mr. Fragiskatos.