Evidence of meeting #42 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. How much time do I have?
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you to our witnesses.
Mr. Mandryk, you made reference earlier to the fact that under legislation—as we know, employment standards are largely looked at at the provincial level—we don't really have an understanding of what constitutes a volunteer. For example, I'm in Ontario. The Employment Standards Act of 2000 was passed in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. It does not really define what a volunteer is. However, the policy and interpretation manual does. It does offer a distinction.
Do you have any thoughts on that distinction?
1:10 p.m.
Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
Yes. I made some reference to some of the factors that some of these older cases have looked at. The Ontario policy and interpretation manual cites a few cases from before I was born. They're before the rise of unpaid internships and they're before the statutory response to unpaid internships. It's not clear to me that the same response would be given now.
Certainly, when you have compensation being given to individuals on an hourly basis that's directly tied to their work, that raises serious red flags about whether it's true volunteering.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Let me just quote directly from the interpretation manual. It says as follows: “One of the key factors in determining whether there has been a true volunteering of services...is the extent to which the person performing the services views the arrangement as being pursuant to his [or her] pursuit of a livelihood”.
At any point did you see, in the description of the Canada student service grant, the government advertise this as a job?
1:15 p.m.
Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
I actually was surprised by the carelessness in some of the government's communications regarding this program. If you look at the announcement that was put out on June 25, it did talk about, you know, their getting a.... I don't have the exact words, but it did seem to talk about how this was coming up because students were having trouble findings jobs, and—
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Mr. Mandryk, I don't mean to interrupt you, but my time is limited.
I'm quoting directly from the interpretation manual, the manual that interprets the Employment Standards Act in the province of Ontario. At any point did you see, in the program description of the Canada student service grant, the program described as a job, one that students could rely upon for their livelihood?
1:15 p.m.
Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
No—
1:15 p.m.
Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
—but it was clear that it was because students were doing this to get the money and because there was a crisis for jobs and financial security for students happening right now. Students who did it would be doing it to get $5,000, so that's—
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Peter, we'll let Mr. Mandryk finish first.
Go ahead. Is your answer complete?
1:15 p.m.
Labour and Class Actions Lawyer, Goldblatt Partners LLP, As an Individual
Yes. Thank you.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Let's take it one step further. In fact, in the way that the program eligibility is described, students who are receiving the Canada emergency student benefit, which offers as much as $2,000 under that benefit, are eligible. In addition, students who are employed are also eligible for the Canada student service grant.
I think this is important, and I know this is your area of expertise. Obviously, I'm not an employment lawyer, but it's clear that the interpretation manual clearly identifies a distinction between an employee and a volunteer. That distinction is the one that I have read. That is the key criterion in outlining a difference between the two.
In my time remaining, Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask Mr. Aylward a question.
Mr. Aylward, I forget which of my colleagues it was—it could have been Ms. Koutrakis—who raised the question about the public service, asking your view specifically about the public service being best-placed, as you put it, to offer administration of the program. But this wasn't just a program that was meant to advertise a volunteer opportunity to student volunteers and to charity and not-for-profit organizations. The aim was to train volunteers. The aim was to make sure that they had the training they needed so that they could go straight away into helping organizations on the front lines of the COVID-19 response.
WE, as we've heard already at this committee, has an enormous network. They have a tie to 2.4 million students and to 7,000 schools right across the country.
I put that to you, because in the context that we're in during this pandemic, public servants have been shouldering an incredible burden doing such a great job, but working from home, administering so many different programs and tending to all sorts of needs.
Is it really unreasonable to think that a third party with such an enormous network could be relied upon to carry out the administration of this program?
1:15 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
I'm not going to speak to the capacity of WE Charity. I can't speak—
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
The public service did not have that capacity. Isn't that right?
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
1:15 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Contrary to what you just said, there is capacity within the federal public service, absolutely.
Unless somebody can demonstrate to me why the Prime Minister made that statement, that WE Charity was the only organization able to carry this out, then I'm sorry but I will refute what you just said, and say quite plainly that, absolutely, within the federal public service, there is the capacity to carry out this student service grant.
1:15 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
The public service had the capacity, in the middle of COVID-19, to train perhaps close to 1,800 students to be volunteers so they could get immediately placed in our organizations. Is that what you said?
1:20 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
There is certainly capacity within the public service to have done that, to have reached out to organizations on the ground.
1:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
It wouldn't be the first disagreement we've had at this committee, Mr. Aylward or Mr. Fragiskatos.
Ms. Gaudreau, you have about three minutes, and then Mr. Julian, the same.