Finance Committee on July 22nd, 2020

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I think it's very important to put this program in context. We came up with multiple approaches to help students. We had a $9-billion program overall, which included support for people who were not going to be able to get jobs, direct financial support. It was tuition reduction, in grants for tuition, or increase in grants for tuition in the fall. It was a reduction in interest costs or elimination of interest costs on debt. There were multiple things we were doing at the same time.

This was one. We saw it as a very important way to engage and improve our ability to deal with the pandemic, so we're going to continue to try. Unfortunately, this is making it more difficult, because the starting position was that the public service didn't have the ability to deliver with the same speed. That means we are trying to figure out a way to do this, but it is difficult, for sure. We will continue to think, though, about how we can deliver.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll go to Mr. Poilievre, and then on to Ms. Dzerowicz.

Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You have five minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Morneau, can you please give me the account of how many times you spoke about WE Charity with your staff or your officials?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I've tried to give an understanding of the process and the deliberations. I think you've heard from me in my prepared statements the periods of briefing—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Just how many times? How many times did you speak about WE with your staff or your officials, the number of times, please?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I think what you will hear in my prepared remarks....

I went through a number of briefings, and those were the times when this was the discussion.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

To recap where we are, you and the Prime Minister gave $912 million to the real estate holding arm of a group that had paid the Prime Minister's family $300,000 and gave your daughter a job and your family $41,000 in illegal travel expenses. That's just what we know so far. We know that this is illegal.

We know that you ought to have recused yourself under section 21 of the Conflict of Interest Act, which states, “A public office holder shall recuse himself or herself from any discussion, decision, debate or vote on any matter in respect of which he or she would be in a conflict of interest.”

We also know that, under section 11, “No public office holder [of which you are one] shall accept any gift or other advantage, including from a trust, that might reasonably be seen to have been given to influence the public office holder in the exercise of an official power, duty or function.” You have violated that section, as well, in accepting $41,000 of secret travel expenses.

You've only admitted now that you did that, the same day you're called to testify under oath on the matter, over a year after the gifts were accepted. You are a minister who has already been found guilty of violating the Conflict of Interest Act when you failed to reveal the existence of your villa in France.

Minister, you have lost the moral authority to hold your office, and it is the position of Her Majesty’s loyal opposition that you resign. Will you resign?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Minister, the floor is yours.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, and to the questioner, I want to make it very clear that there were, in fact, mistakes made here. I have said quite clearly that in hindsight I should have recused myself from this decision when it came to cabinet. I did not know that there were expenses that had not been charged to me in that travel, and that work—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Sorry, Minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Poilievre, we're usually pretty sticky the other way on time, so we'll be sticky this way today. The minister has the floor for a little longer.

Go ahead, Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

As I said, I did not know that there were expenses that were not charged to me, but I'm not making an excuse. It was my mistake not to have taken responsibility to ensure that those expenses were paid. I found that out only with a thorough review of my records over the course of the last few days. That is absolutely a mistake on my behalf.

I then turned around to reimburse, which I know is important—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The minister still has time.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

—and I will continue to work on behalf of Canadians.

I want to put this in context. The program we were trying to deliver for students—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You have 10 seconds, Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

—to get them engaged in volunteering, we believe is very important, and that's important work that I will continue to do with my government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It's over to Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Canadians will find it impossible to believe that this organization showered you with 41,000 dollars' worth of luxury and accommodations and that you didn't know about it, that somehow you were enjoying all of these benefits and expenses paid for you while you were on an exotic vacation to Ecuador, and that somehow you didn't even know the expenses occurred.

Who did you think was paying for all of the wine and the food and the luxury travel that you were consuming? Did you think that it was just falling out of the sky, Minister? Who did you think was paying for these tens of thousands of dollars of luxurious expenses that you were enjoying? Where did you think it was coming from?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

That's the last question. We'll give the minister time to respond.

Go ahead, Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I've said, we did go back and look at our records and found the travel and hotel costs, but didn't find any charges to us from the WE facilities. This is something that we should have rectified sooner. It was absolutely in error. In looking through my records, I was completely surprised at this situation. That's not an excuse; that's just what happened.

Mr. Chair, I can just say, again, that this was not an excuse, and it's a mistake.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, we'll go to Ms. Dzerowicz.

Then, I will give Ms. Gaudreau a couple of minutes for questions and then Mr. Angus, and then we'll have to end.

Ms. Dzerowicz.