Evidence of meeting #43 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charity.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paulette Senior  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Women's Foundation
Rahul O. Singh  Executive Director, GlobalMedic
Vivian Krause  Researcher and Writer, As an Individual
Jesse Brown  Publisher, CANADALAND, As an Individual
Michelle Kovacevic  Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Evelyn Lukyniuk

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Michelle Kovacevic

I was just going to say that, again, I repeat that there was no recommendation on who was to deliver up to the 22nd when the funding decision of the government was made. After that it really is up to the Department of ESDC to negotiate the contribution agreement and all the trappings that come with it in terms of being satisfied that everything is in order.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

This is your last question, James.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

If this was within your department.... Let's say that you were the approving department. In the process that you go through in the administration, would you delve into capacity, financial capacity, governance? What level of due diligence would you do within your department if you were charged with it?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Michelle Kovacevic

I can't speculate on what I would have done or what I might do, but I certainly—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Cumming Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

What would be your normal practice for this size of an agreement?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Michelle Kovacevic

I imagine it would be very similar to the practice that my colleagues over at ESDC exercised. There are terms and conditions that guide entering into contribution agreements, and we would follow them in the same fashion.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Ms. Koutrakis, you'll have to wrap it up.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony, Ms. Kovacevic, and for appearing before the finance committee today.

I also want to add my voice to thank you for the great work that you and your department have done. With all the work that you have done, we have helped millions of Canadians and hundreds of thousands of Canadian businesses. We've helped our economy from a deep recession and possibly worse than a recession in an incredibly short time.

You probably have said this before but I think it's worth mentioning again, so I will raise it again.

Could you please walk us through the process of how typically the various programs arising from the pandemic, making up the Canada emergency response plan program, were put together and brought through the idea generation, analysis and decision-making processes? In cases of working with third parties such as WE, was the process significantly different, and if it was, why and how?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Michelle Kovacevic

Thank you for the question.

I guess I would start by saying the Department of Finance and I.... In the current situation that we're describing, I'm not involved. The Department of Finance is not involved in negotiating an agreement, and we were not involved in negotiating an agreement with WE Charity. Those questions are for ESDC and not for Finance.

In terms of the process—thank you for that question—this has been, wow, a whirlwind over the last couple of months, in terms of the number of programs we've put in place. As assistant deputy minister for social policy, I have been involved in the CERB, in the student package, persons with disabilities, indigenous peoples, essential workers and wage top-ups. It's been very, very busy.

Given the time, given the unprecedented circumstances Canada and the world have found themselves in, it is not unusual—and it was not even unusual before COVID times—for there to be upstream policy deliberations. When the government says, “We want to to do something,” or “We have money,” or there's a real need when people need something, we work with ESDC and with my minister's office: What are the real needs? Who should we talk to? What can we put in place?

Quite frankly, almost everything in my purview, in the social policy realm, kind of worked that way. There was a massive number of discussions, emails and ideas, fecund ideas, rolling off the tongue, trying to land on what ultimately would be the best program, service or support to put in place to help Canadians who needed it during the pandemic.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC

How would you say you and your department were feeling during these times? I know for many of us—I can only speak for myself—these are unprecedented times. This is the first time that I've had to primarily work from home. It's been quite stressful. We all have families. We need to be careful and take care of our own health.

What would you say was the environment? How is the morale of your department and other departments that were working on this to make sure that we delivered the programs that Canadians look to us for, especially the youth?

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Michelle Kovacevic

Thank you for that question.

I can't speculate on how other people in other departments were feeling, but we are the public service. We stand here to execute the will of the government and to help Canadians who need help. We do it proudly and we do it fairly. We provide our advice independently, but right now I would tell you I'm tired.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay, we will have to end it with that. Thank you, Ms. Koutrakis.

We're starting to run up against giving parliamentary staff time to clean the room before the next panel starts.

I should mention to the committee, before we release Ms. Kovacevic, the Prime Minister has accepted the invitation to appear at the finance committee. Arrangements will be made regarding the date and time. I think we asked him for July 28, but I'm sure we'd all be in agreement that, given his schedule, the clerk will have to negotiate a time and place. We will still be meeting on July 28, as there are already witnesses scheduled for that day. That's for the committee's invitation.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Just quickly, I'm wondering.... We have representatives from WE coming next week. We're talking about the agreement, but we don't really know what it looks like.

Is it possible we could get the contribution agreement so we're more efficient when we meet? It's hard to talk about something unless you know exactly what the terms are.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We can certainly make a request to the Clerk of the Privy Council. He was at the meeting the other day, and I think he said he would provide that to us. I will ask the clerk to quickly draft a little note to the Clerk of the Privy Council to see if we can get that contribution agreement before WE appears.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll ask the clerk on behalf of the committee to do that.

Ms. Kovacevic, I think you said it right. You said it's been a whirlwind three months, and we've said it numerous times in this committee. I know today's hearing, and these hearings, sometimes don't look appreciative of the work that you all do, but I want to tell you that we are very appreciative—as Canadians, as members of Parliament—of the work that the public service does. We always run into snags in the road, but that goes with the process.

On behalf of the committee, I sincerely want to thank you for appearing here today, but even more so you and your colleagues for all of the work that you've done, and the long hours you've put in, the time away from family, different working conditions, etc., that you folks have faced in order to put out programming to benefit Canadians and Canadian businesses. We want to thank you for that, and your colleagues as well.

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You're welcome, and do take care.

With that, we will adjourn the meeting and we'll see everyone on Tuesday. We'll send that note to the clerk.

Thanks, all of you. The meeting is adjourned.