Finance Committee on July 30th, 2020

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

So you see it as a perception, not as a violation of the Conflict of Interest Act. Okay. Thank you for that.

Moving on to the actual decision, were you involved or was the Prime Minister's Office involved in any way in the decision not to adequately fund the Canada summer jobs program for students? As you and MPs across the country are aware, it was basically a program that was shortchanged. Right across the country, positions were not filled because of the inadequate funding provided to Canada summer jobs.

Was that a decision that you were aware of or that you took part in?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I do believe that differs from the issue we're discussing today, Peter.

But go ahead, Ms. Telford. If you have an answer for it, go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It's very relevant, Mr. Chair; very relevant.

[Katie Telford]

I know how important the Canada summer jobs program is to both students and all of the honourable members in the House of Commons. We hear from caucus members on a regular basis about how important it is in their ridings.

I was pleased to hear recently that over 85,000 jobs have been approved through the Canada summer jobs program this summer.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Well, my question was actually, were you involved in that decision or who took that decision, but I'll move on.

I will quote from the Public Service Alliance of Canada's national president, Chris Aylward, who appeared before this committee. He said, “Mr. Trudeau’s claim that WE Charity is the ‘only one’ that can administer the new grant program is not only factually wrong, it’s also insulting to our members.” That means that both in terms of the Prime Minister's testimony and yours, factually, you are giving information that is simply incorrect.

To what extent was the public service actually involved in this decision, when clearly public servants wanted to be involved in the program, were ready to be involved in the program, and don't appear to have been considered at any point in the elaboration of this scheme?

[Katie Telford]

We can go based on the information that was recommended to us at the time by public servants, and public servants themselves said that this was a program, at this time, that was best administered by a third party organization.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I just quoted a public servant who said the contrary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Julian, I took a little time from you talking there, so I'll give you one more question.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

The public servants have indicated that they could administer the new grant program. My question for you comes back to the underfunding of Canada summer jobs as well. Who made these decisions? Were they passed on to you? Were you aware in the Prime Minister's Office, or did the Prime Minister's Office participate in, these decisions that had such wide-reaching consequences?

[Katie Telford]

It's my job to give the best advice I can based on the best information I can to the Prime Minister on all the decisions coming before him and the cabinet, so to the extent that any of the various student and youth programs were coming to cabinet, I was giving advice to the Prime Minister on those programs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. Thank you, both.

Now we'll go to a five-minute round. First up will be Mr. Cooper; then Mr. Fraser, Mr. Cumming and Ms. Koutrakis.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Ms. Telford, for being here today.

You and the Prime Minister said that the Ethics Commissioner gave clearance to the activities of Ms. Grégoire Trudeau with respect to WE. The Prime Minister said that clearance had taken place a long time ago.

Would you not see that there might be a need to talk to the Ethics Commissioner on May 8 in the face of a half-a-billion dollar contribution that the Prime Minister would be involved in discussing and ultimately deciding at the cabinet table?

[Katie Telford]

When clearance was sought for the work that Sophie Grégoire Trudeau has been doing on destigmatizing mental health and empowering young people, the Ethics Commissioner explicitly stated that she was asked to be doing this in her own right, not as the wife of the Prime Minister, and that her expenses could be covered as part of that work. So we had clearance for her to do the things she was doing. It also explicitly stated that it did not put us into any position of conflict.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Ms. Telford, that was in the abstract. Now you had before you a half-a-billion dollar contribution that was being discussed and decided upon at cabinet.

Did you advise the Prime Minister that he ought to consult the Ethics Commissioner and if not, why not, and why didn't he? Obviously it's been proven, as it turns out, to be of some interest to the Ethics Commissioner.

[Katie Telford]

I don't believe it was entirely in the abstract. We had a very complete description of what Sophie's work was going to be and its scope. That's what had just recently launched: the podcast was part of that scope. It also included clearance for her to be able to travel for some of her speaking engagements with the organization.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You said and the Prime Minister said you were concerned about people's perceptions. I take it that would be perceptions of conflict of interest, and I would submit actual conflicts of interest, so it is inexplicable why you would not have advised him, or why he would not have taken it upon himself, to go to the Ethics Commissioner.

However, I want to ask you about May 8 and what you said and what he said, namely that he pushed back when he learned about the proposal and had questions.

If in fact the Prime Minister pushed back, how do you explain that the WE organization was collecting eligible expenses as of May 5?

[Katie Telford]

I think that is a question that is best placed to the officials who made the arrangements with the WE organization, and I am sure you did. I believe you asked those questions of the WE organization as well in terms of the specifics within the contribution agreement, but you suggested that it was perhaps....

You said, if he pushed back. I can assure you that he did push back with a number of questions in that briefing, which is why it didn't go to cabinet that day.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

However, for two weeks between May 8 and May 22, WE continued to incur eligible expenses, so it doesn't add up to say that the Prime Minister pushed back, but it wasn't frozen, that the message wasn't conveyed to WE and it continued to proceed with moving ahead as though it were about to administer the program.

How do you explain that?

[Katie Telford]

Again, I would encourage you to ask those questions of the WE organization, if you haven't already, though I'm sure you have, and of the officials involved in the crafting of the contribution agreement.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Clearly the message didn't get very far if the Prime Minister, in fact, pushed back.

[Katie Telford]

The program was launched, as you know, at the end of June. It was only at that time, or just prior to that obviously, that the agreement was finalized. I cannot speak to how they structured the details within the agreement.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

They continued to incur expenses as the Prime Minister supposedly pushed back.

I want to ask you.... Mr. Julian had raised the issue of Artbound. I want to pick up on that and ask more broadly what the total value is of expenses, benefits, reimbursements or any other in-kind or monetary consideration that you have received from the WE organization, or any organization affiliated with the Kielburgers.

[Katie Telford]

Nothing.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

That would include your travel with Craig and Marc Kielburger to Kenya in February 2011?

[Katie Telford]

I did not travel anywhere.