Finance Committee on July 30th, 2020

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

You don't believe or you don't know whether you or your staff or anyone in the department had any kind of discussions with Mary Ng about WE since March?

[Katie Telford]

I thought your previous question was about me. I personally did not have a conversation with Minister Ng about that proposal. I would have to....

I'm unaware of staff having spoken directly to her, though I suspect they did speak, as I already said, and that they would have been speaking with her office on that proposal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

We'll now turn to Ms. Koutrakis, and then we go on to Ms. Gaudreau and Mr. Julian.

Ms. Koutrakis, you have the floor.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Telford, for being with us this afternoon.

The WE organization sent its social entrepreneurship proposal to the government in April 2020. Were you aware of that proposal at the time?

[Katie Telford]

I want to make sure I'm talking about the right.... Are we talking about the social entrepreneurial proposal?

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

That's correct.

[Katie Telford]

I was not aware when it first came in to the Prime Minister's Office. As I said, there was advice that came through from our policy team.

To provide a little more on that, one of the reasons in terms of not proceeding with that proposal was that it seemed like it might be a better program fit from a recovery standpoint, perhaps, but it wasn't the right thing at this time. Right now we are focused on emergency measures, and we needed emergency measures to support students. That was the phase we have been in from April, and we continue to be in that phase.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Given the importance and scope of the Canada student service grant program and the fact that the program was developed and implemented so quickly, could the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have recused themselves completely from the decision-making process?

Would the timely delivery or quality of the program been significantly impacted had the Prime Minister recused himself completely from the decision-making process?

[Katie Telford]

Both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have said that they wish that they had recused themselves. It's hard to speak in terms of what might be the case, but I don't believe, because the program was being offered as a binary choice on whether to proceed or not proceed, that the program would have been any different if they had not been there. In retrospect, they have both said, given the potential for concern around a perception of favouritism, that this was reason enough for them to have recused themselves.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Can you please describe how a program of similar size and scope as the CSSG would be designed, outsourced and then administered under normal circumstances? Can you compare that process with the process used to determine how this program would be outsourced and implemented, given the current crisis situation we are facing?

[Katie Telford]

I'm not sure that it would be any different if we were in a non-pandemic crisis time, except for one very big factor, which is that obviously things were moving very, very quickly and there was a high volume of work being done. We had people working from their homes, obviously, and everyone was separate from one another and had to work right around the clock. It was 15-hour to 20-hour days seven days a week. Those were some not insignificant differences. They don't explain anything, other than that those were the true differences between now and perhaps a normal time.

I would add that during this time and even in the past, there have been several examples—and I believe the Prime Minister may have referenced at least one of them—of working and partnering with third party organizations to help deliver programs.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

I have a final question, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Telford, can you expand on the lessons learned throughout this process and comment on how these lessons will be applied going forward to avoid similar confusions or perceptions of conflict of interest? What more can we put in place for all cabinet members and especially for the PM?

[Katie Telford]

As I said in one of my earlier answers, a reflection we've had, knowing that this crisis is ongoing, is that even within a crisis, we must ensure that we are adding layers of protection, adding rigour to the process, even if it means slowing down slightly despite the fact that we still need to move very, very quickly to support Canadians and continue doing that while finding the right balance. This has obviously given us pause to make sure that we keep improving.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

We're down to a round of two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

I forgot to mention—and I hope this will not come out of my time—that I'll be giving my time for the remainder of the meeting to Mr. Fortin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. I will not take that time from either of you.

Mr. Fortin, you're on. My apologies.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's kind of you.

I'd like to start by apologizing, Mr. Chair. Earlier, I said that the interpretation was putting me at a huge disadvantage, causing me to lose roughly 20% of my speaking time. That comment wasn't aimed at the interpreters. I want to make that clear, because they're doing an excellent job.

Now, Ms. Telford, you said that, if you had to do it over again, you think it would be appropriate to improve the protections in place to keep something like this from happening again.

That's surprising, given that this is the third time the Prime Minister has been caught red-handed. He had a similar issue involving the Aga Khan, when he was first elected.

How come you haven't improved those protections already, since the Aga Khan scandal?

[Katie Telford]

As I said in my opening remarks and I think in a couple of answers already, we should always be working to improve and to find different ways to make sure we are being as careful and cognizant as possible, even of the perception of favouritism or conflict or anything else. I think we've been reflecting on that.

We are going to keep working hard to improve. We will be working with the Ethics Commissioner, taking any advice that he has as well.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We certainly agree on that, Ms. Telford.

What I don't understand, though, is why it hasn't been done already.

In any case, Mr. Morneau and Mr. Trudeau both apologized for not recusing themselves at the time that the decision was made. They said they regretted not doing so.

What's your view? Do you agree that they should have recused themselves at that point?

[Katie Telford]

Yes, of course. I supported both of them in terms of their statements to Canadians.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You agree, then, that they shouldn't have been involved in the decision to award the administration of the program to WE? Do you agree with that?

[Katie Telford]

I think they've both said that in hindsight and upon reflection, they wish they had recused themselves, and I agree.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Do you agree that they shouldn't have been involved in this decision?

[Katie Telford]

I think I'm answering your question, sir. I support both the minister and Prime Minister in what they said.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Very well.